Eleven Points of Discussion on Jiva-tattva

by B. B. Visnu Swami

The purpose of this presentation is to provide devotees with pertinent quotes from sastra, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, and other prominent acaryas so that one may be more properly informed on the issue of the "Origin of the Jiva." These quotes are organized in a logical way in support of the eleven points bellow. It is not meant to be a complete presentation in itself, but rather to provoke further contemplation, investigation and penetrating thought.

The theory that all living entities in the material world were originally in eternal lila with the Lord in Vaikuntha has many logical and sastric inconsistencies. We have tried to point out some of these herein.

All purports are those of our Guru Maharaja Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, unless otherwise stated. Many quotes from the Jaiva Dharma of Bhaktivinoda Thakura are taken directly from the 2nd English edition pubished by the Madras Gaudiya Matha. The sections quoted were translated by Haridas Maitra, M.A, B.T., former Head Master of Thakura Bhakti Vinoda Institute (Sri Mayapura) and the eminent scholar, His Holiness Srimad Bhakti Sadhaka Niskincana Maharaja, subsequent to learning the proper siddhantic conclusions at the lotus feet of their renowned Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

It is unfortunate that the leaders of one large organization of devotees have chosen to interpret the conclusions of sastra in a manner directly opposing that of the direct disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura.

* 1-Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down

* 2- The Vaikuntha world is suddha-sattva; cinmaya-rasa: no mundane influence. It's residents are fully self-realized and in full knowledge of their position

* 3-Residents of Vaikuntha have perfect qualities, are fully satisfied (desireless) and there is no disharmony

* 4-The jivas originate from the tatastha

* 5-The exaulted feelings of Krsna's nitya-parsadas are always beyond the reaches of maya

* 6-The Lord's servants come to the material world

* 7-Imperfection in Vaikuntha is Mayavada

* 8-Preaching and Siddhanta

* 9-Forgetfulness of Krsna

* 10-Gaudiya acaryas support the no-fall siddhanta

* 11-Conclusion: Bewilderment due to Vaisnava aparadha


1 - The Residents of Vaikuntha never fall down

It is accepted by the majority of the members of the Vaisnava community that once having attained the spiritual world one cannot fall down. Numerous sastric texts (and commentaries) support this, such as: Bhagavad-gita 4.9, 8.15, 8.16, 13.24, 15.4, 15.6, 8.22, purport [of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada], and Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.2.31, 10.6.40, 3.16.12, purp., 3.25.29, purp., 7.1.34, purp. for example. We substantiate, by pertinent quotes, in the following section that nitya-siddha devotees, eternal residents who are already in the spiritual world, also never fall down from Vaikuntha or Goloka.

Sastric texts:

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

The living entities [jivas] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned. Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Krsna consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Krsna. They are to be considered eternal associates of Krsna, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text)

In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees) (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.)

. . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text)

Srila Vrndavana dasa Thakura:

Therefore there is no birth or death for the Vaisnavas [the eternal associates]. They descend to the material world with the Lord and return to His abode with Him. The Vaisnava is never bound by karma and thus does not take birth in the material world. (Caitanya-Bhagavata Antya-lila 10.172)

Srila Rupa Gosvami:

Even the associates of the Lord are described as having eternal forms. (Laghu-bhag. 1.143)

The samprapta-siddhas are those who have become perfect by performing bhakti and nitya-siddhas are those who have never been conditioned and thus are eternally siddhas. (Brs. 2.1.281, text)

The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text)

Srila Jiva Gosvami:

The third of ten characteristics of Vaikuntha listed by Srila Jiva Gosvami in Bhagavat-sandarbha, text 61, is that anyone who has attained Vaikuntha does not fall. Srila Jiva Gosvami also provides numerous examples and quotes as proof of this fact.

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana:

Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6).

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

Mahavisnu, the incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the jiva-sakti as Paramatma, reveals the jiva-souls of the mundane world. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's grace they get shelter under the Hladini (bliss-giving) element of the cit-sakti, they are liable to be overcome by maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 216)

. . . Gradually they reach the transcendental abode of the Lord and attain the exact same status as His eternal associates. (Jaiva Dharma, p. 229)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

Jivas are of two kinds. 1) Nitya-mukta (eternally free) 2) Nitya-baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are ever serving the Supreme God. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S T )

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The living entities are parts and parcels of the Lord. They are of two varieties, namely nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. The nitya-muktas are eternally liberated souls, and they are eternally engaged in the reciprocation of transcendental loving service with the Lord in His eternal abode beyond the manifested mundane creations. (Bhag.1.10.22, purp.)

. . . the planets in the spiritual sky . . . are in fact transcendental to the material modes . . . The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets . . . and free from all kinds of inebriates experienced in the material world . . . The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord . . . The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In the words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amrta. As described in the Vedas, utamrtatvasyesanah: the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad-gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries . . . In the material world there is always anxiety or fearfulness in the hearts of all living entities, but the Lord, being Himself the supreme fearless, also awards the same quality of fearlessness to His pure devotees. Mundane existence is itself a kind of fear because in all mundane bodies the effects of birth, death, old age and disease always keep a living being compact in fear. In the mundane world, there is always the influence of time, which changes things from one stage to another, and the living entity originally being avikara, or unchangeable, suffers a great deal on account of changes due to the influence of time.

The changing effects of eternal time are conspicuously absent in the immortal kingdom of God, which should therefore be understood to have no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.)

The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere even though they sometimes come into the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

. . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.)

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha never return to the material world. (Bhag. 3.16.27, purp.)

A devotee once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident. [Jaya and Vijaya] (Bhag. 3.16.29, purp.)

The word kuta-stha, meaning "without change," is also very significant. There are two kinds of living entities-nitya-mukta and nitya-baddha. A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. Such a nitya-mukta living entity represents the Supersoul as His expansion. As stated in the Vedas, nityo nityanam. Thus the nitya-mukta living entity knows that he is an expansion of the supreme nitya, or the eternal Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.61, purp.)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

One who is not materially infected and who does not forget Krsna as his master is called nitya-mukta. In other words, one who is eternally liberated from material contamination is called nitya-mukta. From time immemorial the nitya-mukta living entity has always been a devotee of Krsna, and his only attempt has been to serve Krsna. Thus he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

Srila Prabhupada confirms his agreement with Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura.

An explanation of verses 8 through 15 is given by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in his Amrta-pravaha-bhasya . . . The living entities are divided into two categoriesthe eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. The ever-conditioned are always under the clutches of the external energy . . . The nitya-baddhas are always conditioned by the external energy, and the nitya-muktas never come in contact with the external energy. Sometimes an ever-liberated personal associate of the Supreme Personality of Godhead descends into this universe just as the Lord descends. Although working for the liberation of conditioned souls, the messenger of the Supreme Lord remains untouched by the material energy. Generally ever-liberated personalities live in the spiritual world as associates of Lord Krsna, and they are known as krsna-parsada, associates of the Lord. Their only business is enjoying Lord Krsna's company, and even though such eternally liberated persons come within this material world to serve the Lord's purpose, they enjoy Lord Krsna's company without stoppage . . . The ever-conditioned soul, provoked by lusty desires to enjoy the material world, is subjected to transmigrate from one body to another . . . If by chance he meets a saintly person who works on Krsna's behalf to deliver conditioned souls, and if he agrees to abide by his order, he can gradually approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. (Cc Madhya-lila 22.14-15, purp.)

The third-class person in Krsna consciousness may fall down, but when one is in the second class he does not fall down, and for the first-class person in Krsna consciousness there is no chance of falling down. (Bg. 9.3, purport)

The pure devotee has no actual chance to fall down, because the Supreme Godhead personally takes care of His pure devotees. (Bg. 9.34, purport)

Eternally liberated living entities never come into contact with material nature . . . they are counted among the associates of Krsna. (Teachings of Lord Caitanya, p. 108)

. . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness . . . you should not consider that My associates are ever separated from Me . . . they are almost as powerful as I am . . . they are very, very dear to Me, as I am very, very dear to them. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

First opportunity to associate with Krsna:

The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 6th paragraph)

There are two kinds of souls: conditioned and liberated, nitya-baddha, nitya-mukta. Just like we are, similarly, there are living entities in the spiritual sky also, but they are liberated. They never become conditioned. We are conditioned. We do not know from when, but we are conditioned. So jiva yara vasi. In this material world, we conditioned, we are residents. But in the spiritual world the residents are all liberated souls. Jagal-laksmi rakhi' rahe yahan maya dasi. (670105CC.NY)

They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world.(Bhag. Lecture, June 20, 1973, Mayapura)

The following quotes clearly distinguish that the nitya-baddhas can be liberated and that the nitya-siddhas are never enslaved in the material world even when they come here.

The nitya-muktas are in Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.)

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has given a great amount of evidence from the Vedic literatures proving that the humanlike form of the Personality of Godhead and His holy name, abode, paraphernalia and associates are all eternal, spiritual manifestations without any tinge of material contamination. (Bhag. 11.30.5, purport by disciples of A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

There are two kinds of living entities. Nitya-baddha means ever-conditioned. Ever-conditioned means those who are in this material world; they do not know when they came in touch with this material world. Neither do they know when they will be liberated. They are called nitya-baddha, ever-conditioned. And similarly, there are nitya-siddhas. Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. There are two kinds of living entities: nitya-siddha, nitya-baddha. Nitya-baddhas are within this material world. Beginning from Brahma down to a small ant, insignificant ant, they are all nitya-baddhas.

Anyone who is in this material world, nitya-baddha. And nitya-siddhas, they never come in contact with this material world, and even they come for some business under the order of the Supreme Lord, they do not touch these material qualities. They remain always transcendental. As Krsna remains always transcendental, even though He is in this material world, similarly, Krsna's nitya-siddha associates, they are also transcendental. They never touch this material world. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

Those who are in the spiritual world, they are nitya-siddha. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. Just like Krsna is nitya-muktya suddha. Similarly the associates of Krsna who come with Him . . . Just like the gopis or the cowherd boys . . . they are all nitya-siddha, nitya-muktya . . . They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles)

. . . you should know that the great liberated souls and incarnations who appear from time to time in this material world are not actually coming back, because they are never subject to material contamination or the laws of material nature. (Ltr Srila Prabhupada~Vrndavanesvari, 6 June 1969)

We also mention here that, in regards to the theory that the nitya-muktas fall from the spiritual world and the baddha-mukta (bound who become liberated) do not fall, there is no evidence in sastra supporting or even mentioning this theory, nor do sanskrit terms exist for the mukta-baddha (liberated who become bound). Absolutely no distinction is made in the writings of our acaryas or in sastra between different classes of living entities in the spiritual world in reference to being eligible to fall or not; indeed no direct sastric or acarya reference states that any of them fall down. Neither is there any explicit mention in scripture of fallen nitya-muktas. The theory that the associates of the Lord in the spiritual world fall down implies that nitya-muktas (eternally liberated residents of Vaikuntha) are inferior to baddha-muktas (those bound in the material world who become liberated). This theory insinuates that nitya-muktas must come to the material world to become really fall-proof--to get a better education--i.e., one cannot be a gentleman unless he first visits a brothel. It also implies that bhaya-bhakti, devotion produced by fear or suffering, is superior to prema-bhakti, for only bhaya-bhakti gives complete protection to a devotee, that he will never fall down.

2- The Vaikuntha world is suddha-sattva; cinmaya-rasa: no mundane influence. It's residents are fully self-realized and in full knowledge of their position

Maha-maya is the deluding potency which covers the living entity in material existence. "The living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.) In the spiritual world there is no illusion, no fear whatsoever, nor anxiety . The following quotes show that no mundane qualities whatsoever exist in the spiritual world. The inherent qualities of the residents of the spiritual worlds and of the spiritual world itself, do not allow it's residents to become bewildered, envious or susceptible to maya.

Sastric texts:

In the personal abode of the Lord . . . There is no predominance of the influence of time, so what to speak of the illusory, external energy [maha-maya]; it cannot enter that region. (Bhag. 2.9.10, TEXT)

. . . Vaikuntha, where there is no fear. (Bhag. 12.11.19, text)

The Viraja, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual and material worlds. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and it cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.269, text)

Srila Jiva Gosvami

In Bhagavat-sandarbha text 75-78, Sri Jiva describes that the Lord's associates have transcendental bodies, possess qualities identical to those of the Lord, they are beyond the influence of time, are all suddha-sattva in nature, eternal, immutable, devoid of the lower modes, free from lust and greed, are effulgent with Vedic knowledge and are the personification of the fivefold worship of the Lord.

Srila Sanatana Gosvami:

Devotional service cannot be performed without disturbance in any place other than Vaikuntha and in the association of like-minded devotees. (Brhad-Bhag. 2.3.131-2) Sanatana Gosvami comments further, "In Vaikuntha there are no obstacles to bhakti created by elements such as time."

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

The jivas who are the eternal devotees of God in Goloka Vrndavana and in Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) . . . are adroit in the service of the worshipable entity, God . . . they have nothing to do with maya, without any knowledge even of the existence of a sakti known as maya-sakti . . . They are ever free from bondage. It is love that is their very life; affliction, death and fear are quite unknown to them. Also, the atomic jivas who are the outcomes of the rays of the glance of Mahavishnu lying in the ocean of karana (cause) towards maya-are numberless. Because they are by side of maya, the variegatedness of maya is visible to them. The characteristics that have been stated of the jivas in common are in them; yet due to their atomic character turn their eyes towards the cit region as also the world of maya from the border line. In this condition, the jivas are too weak, because they have not acquired the cit strength through the grace of the Entity (God) to Whom their service is due. (Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 16, p. 227, translated and published by the Madras Gaudiya Matha)

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Visnu. These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time. (Bhag. 1.14.35-6, purp.)

In the spiritual world there is no struggle for existence because everyone there exists eternally. There is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. The Lord, being creator of everything, including the living beings, factually is the proprietor and enjoyer of everything that be, but in the material world, by the spell of maya, or illusion, this eternal relation with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is forgotten, and so the living being is conditioned under the law of struggle for existence and survival of the fittest. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.)

The well-situated self, or Brahman-realized soul, perfectly understands that the Supreme Brahman, or the personality of Godhead, is the all-powerful Väsudeva and that he (the self-realized living being) is a part and parcel of the supreme whole. As such, his constitutional position is to cooperate with Him in all respects in the transcendental relation of the served and the servitor. Such a self-realized soul ceases to exhibit his useless activities of attempting to lord it over material nature. Being scientifically well informed, he fully engages himself in faithful devotion to the Lord. (Bhag. 2.2.19)

. . . those planets in the spiritual sky, which comprises the seventy-five percent expansion of the internal potency of the Lord . . . The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord . . .The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful . . . In the material world there is always anxiety or fearfulness . . . in the kingdom of God . . . no influence of time and therefore no fear whatsoever . . . Happiness in spiritual nature always increases in volume with a new phase of appreciation; there is no question of decreasing the bliss. Such unalloyed spiritual bliss is nowhere to be found within the orbit of the material universe. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purport)

In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation is the three-fourths manifestation . . . This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sankhya-kaumudi it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities [in the Vaikunthalokas ] are eternally associated without any break. . . everything in the transcendental world is everlasting . . . There are no such actions and reactions of cause and effects there, so the cycle of birth, growth, existence, tranformations, deterioration and annihilation-the six material changes-are not existent there. It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport)

The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely, suddha-sattva, the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.)

In the spiritual sky the planets are called Vaikuntha because the residents of these planets are free from all anxieties. . . . On the other hand, the residents of the material planets are always afraid . . . full of anxieties. (Bhag. 3.15.13, purport)

In the Vaikuntha planets there is no scarcity of the things which are available in the material world; they are available, but they are more valuable because they are spiritual and therefore eternal and blissful... The word yoga-maya is used in this verse. Yoga-maya-balena vikuntham. The transcendental happiness exhibited in the spiritual world and all other spiritual manifestations there are made possible by the influence of yoga-maya, the internal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.26, purport)

Those who are ever-liberated never come in contact with maya, the external energy. (Bg. 7.14, purport)

Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ananda. Everyone there is of the same potencyananda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.)

. . . Maha-maya is horrible to the conditioned soul, but to the liberated soul, there is no fear of maha-maya, because he is protected by yoga-maya. (SP Ltr Madhusudhana, July 29th 1968)

One thing you may inform all devotees that maya cannot touch a pure devotee. When you find a devotee is supposed to be in difficulty it is not the work of maya but is the work of the Lord by His personal internal energy . . . It is clearly stated in the Bhagavad-gita that anyone who is cent per cent engaged in the service of the Lord is transcendentally situated and the influence of maya has no more any action on such body. The Lord and His pure devotees are always beyond the range of maya's action. Even though they appear like the action of maya, we should understand their action of yoga-maya or the internal of potency of the Lord. (SP Ltr Satsvarupa: April 3, 1968)

In the ISKCON GBC Position booklet it is stated that the residents of the spiritual world have the free will to leave, as a crazy man has the free will to jump off the roof. In this booklet they state that these residents are indeed crazy (bewildered) when they leave. Yet we find quotes (presented below) that everyone in the spiritual world is fully cognizant in their sat-cit-ananda spiritual body, fully in knowledge of their position and cannot become illusioned; additionally, illusion being a product of maya, is not allowed there-na yatra maya (Bhag. 2.9.10).

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura writes,

Because of association with avidya, which has no beginning, the jiva has forgotten his blissful and conscious nature and has developed a false ego in the material body. He suffers because of acquiring bodily characteristics and misfortune, therefore no one is to be blamed. (Commentary on Bhag. 3.7.9)

Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes,

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of [the] soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

Srila Prabhupada writes,

How then can the living entiry become forgetful of his real identity as pure spirit soul and identify with matter unless influenced by something beyond himself? The conclusion is that the living entity is influenced by the avidya potency, as is confirmed in both the Visnu Purana and the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam . . . The living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency. (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.)

A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would be not independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.)

The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.)

Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?

Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (670218CC.SF)

Everyone in the spiritual world is fully cognizant of their actual position. To desire something else when in full knowledge, fully satisfied and full of bliss is highly unlikely:

Text:

My devotee actually becomes self-realized by My unlimited causeless mercy, and thus, when freed from all doubts, he steadily progresses towards his destined abode, which is directly under the protection of My spiritual energy of unadulterated bliss. That is the ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity. (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text)

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

In Cit-jagat there is no ignorance whatsoever of free souls. (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura: Sri Caitanya's Teachings-Part II, Chapter One, p. 390-1)

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

. . . enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time. (Bhag. 1.14.35-6, purp.)

The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purp.)

They eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.)

One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta. (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.)

Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world all those who are in the devotional service of the Lord are eternally fixed, for they understand the position of the Supreme Being, as well as their individual constitution. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.)

They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.)

[Nitya-mukta] He never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.)

The nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205)

In the Vaikuntha sky everyone is in full knowledge. (Krsna Book, Ch. 28, 7th parag.)

"When one goes to a transcendental planet, it is necessary to change both the finer and gross bodies, for one has to reach the spiritual sky completely in a spiritual form." (Cc. Adi-lila 5.22, purp.)

Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge . . . ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy-are completely absent . . . the influence of maya, the total external energy, which induces us to become more and more materialistic and forget our relationship with God, is also absent there . . . the living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities (Cc. Madhya-lila 5.22, purp.)

He has His eternal form of bliss and knowledge (sac-cid-ananda-vigraha). Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ananda. Everyone there is of the same potencyananda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.)

The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purp.)

Prominent mistakes:

We contrast these descriptions of self-realization and full knowledge regarding the residents of the spiritual worlds with that presented in the GBC Position Booklet. Therein, "full of knowledge" is defined as "possessing only a small portion of knowledge according to ones small capacity and necessity." It is also stated that, "the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world...Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires." Here in particular, three mistakes are made. The first mistake is the assumption that "full knowledge," in reference to the residents of the spiritual world, can be interpreted to mean that these residents are not fully self realized--as stated througout sastra and repeatedly by Srila Prabhupada. Numerous supporting references have already been presented earlier in this section.

In the material world the minute jivas, who are sac-cid-ananda by nature, are covered over by maya and are thus in a bewildered state. When the living entity uses his free will to try and enjoy independently of the Lord in the material world, he is covered by maya and is forced to serve maya. He has no choice, in the sense that he is attached and thinks this is in his best interest. Although he has the free choice to choose spiritual life, he sees this as a threat to his sense gratification and therefore undesirable. Therefore materialistic atheists resist the efforts of preachers.

In the spiritual world however, the living entity, fully absorbed in ecstatic love, cannot bear the thought of doing anything averse to the Lord's interest--seeing this as a threat to his continued absorption in pure loving devotional service--his very life. Here in the spiritual world, all the living entities are fully self-realized, in that they have fully realized the conclusions of sastra--that they are an eternal servant of the Lord, and they are fully experiencing their realizations of eternal blissfulness. It is not that they know every last detail of sastra. For example, some of the gopis were previously the Personified Vedas. Although as gopis, they exhibited the highest standard of devotion as recognized by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu-ramya kacit upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena, they had almost no knowledge of the Vedas, and state as much in their wonderful prayers upon meeting their beloved Krsna after so long at Kuruksetra. (Bhag. 10.82.48) Yet we should not agree with them that they are ordinary girls simply engaged in household affairs. They are the personification of the Vedas, absorbed in the highest mellows of devotion.

The second mistake as mentioned above, is that the living entity may be covered by envy and lust while still within the spiritual world.

The third mistake is that a resident of the spiritual world has desires to satisfy. These points are discussed in section three.

As stated above by Srila Prabhupada, residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord. For them to turn away from the Lord toward the material world is equivalent to a normal sane man considering jumping off of a roof as a viable option in life. They have the freedom to do so, but never consider it for a moment.

3-Residents of Vaikuntha have perfect qualities, are fully satisfied (desireless) and there is no disharmony

The following quotes substantiate that there is no possibility of emnity between the Lord and His personal associates in the spiritual world. Envy and disharmony are nonexistent there. The eternal residents are completely satisfied and all their desires are satisfied by rendering service to the Lord.

Sastric texts:

In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.33, text)

And in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg.15.16, text)

Srila Rupa Goswami:

All the eternally perfected devotees have eternal and blissful qualities just like Lord Mukunda. Their supreme love for Krsna is millions and missions of times more than their love for their own self or body. (Brs. 2.1.290)

Srila Jiva Goswami:

According to Srila Jiva Gosvami, the so-called fight among the members of the Yadu dynasty was actually a display of the pastime potency of the Lord, since Lord Krsna's personal associates are never subject to ordinary birth and death like conditioned souls. (Bhag. 11.31.11, purport)

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

In Vaikunthaloka there is no occupation but the service of the Lord, and this service is not rendered with a purpose. Although every service has a particular result, the devotees never aspire for the fulfillment of their own desires; their desires are fulfilled by rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.14, purport)

In the Vaikuntha world, the spiritual sky, only the mode of goodness in its pure form exists. The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely, suddha-sattva, the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.)

Serving the Lord in transcendental love yields such transcendental pleasure that, in comparison, sense gratification is counted as insignificant. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. This is true even among the flowers, which are all conscious of the greatness of tulasi. In the Vaikuntha world entered by the four Kumaras, even the birds and flowers are conscious of service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.19, purp.)

The difference between the inhabitants of a Vaikuntha planet and those of a material planet is that in Vaikuntha all the residents engage in the service of the Lord Himself and are equipped with all His good qualities. It has been analyzed by great personalities that when a conditioned soul is liberated and becomes a devotee, about seventy-nine percent of all the good qualities of the Lord develop in his person. Therefore in the Vaikuntha world there is no question of enmity between the Lord and the residents. Here in this material world the citizens may be inimical to the chief executives or heads of state, but in Vaikuntha there is no such mentality. One is not allowed to enter Vaikuntha unless he has completely developed the good qualities. The basic principle of goodness is to accept subordination from the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The sages therefore, were surprised to see that the two doormen who checked them from entering the palace were not exactly like the residents of Vaikunthaloka. It may be said that a doorman's duty is to determine who should be allowed to enter the palace and who should not. But that is not relevant in this matter because no one is allowed to enter the Vaikuntha planets unless he has developed one hundred percent his mentality of devotional service to the Supreme Lord. No enemy of the Lord can enter Vaikunthaloka. (Bhag. 3.15.32, purport)

In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of emnity. Everything there is absolute . . . in the Vaikuntha planets the Lord is perfect, and the inhabitants also are perfectly engaged in the service of the Lord . . . Maya means disharmony between the living entities and the Supreme Lord, and Vaikuntha means harmony between them. (Bhag. 3.15.33, purp.)

Any material happiness is like water in a ditch, whereas the spiritual happiness eternally enjoyed in the spiritual world is like an ocean of nectar in which a devotee wants to swim. (Bhag. 6.12.22, purp.)

In the advanced stage, one falls completely in love with Krsna. This highest perfectional stage of life enables the devotee to be transferred to Krsna's abode in the spiritual sky, Goloka Vrndavana, where the devotee becomes eternally happy. (Bg. 8.28, purp.)

Here the Lord is giving, in summary, the contents of the Vedanta-sutra. He says that the living entities, who are innumerable, can be divided into two classes the fallible and the infallible. The living entities are eternally separated parts and parcels of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When they are in contact with the material world they are called jiva-bhuta, and the Sanskrit words given here, ksarah sarvani bhutani, mean that they are fallible. Those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but that there is no disunity. (Bg. 15.16, purp.)

This description of the abode of Krsna gives us definite information of the transcendental place where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge, but . . . the qualities in Vaikuntha are a manifestation of God's internal potency, and therefore they are purely spiritual and transcendental, with no trace of material infection . . . where the five inherent qualities of the material world-namely ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy-are completely absent . . . the influence of maya, the total external energy, which induces us to become more and more materialistic and forget our relationship with God, is also absent there . . . the living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God . . . There is no difference between atheists and the faithful in the Vaikuntha planets because all who settle there are freed from the material qualities, and thus suras and asuras become equally obedient loving servitors of the Lord. (Cc. Madhya-lila 5.22, purp.)

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-ranjana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-ranjana. [710217CC.GOR]

In many places in the sastra it is stated that the Lord is completely controlled by His devotees:

The Supreme Living Being is perfect in all relations with His pure devotee. (Bhag. 1.15.4)

The Lord becomes submissive to even a very insignificant devotee because of his devotional service. (Cc. Adi-lila 7.145, text)

He comes under the control of His devotees. (Bhag. 10.9.19, text)

. . . certainly conquer Your Lordship. (Bhag. 10.14.3, text)

I am completely under the control of My devotees. (Bhag. 9.4.63, text)

The pure devotees . . . bring Me under their full control. (Bhag. 9.4.66, text)

The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart. (Bhag. 9.4.68, text)

How can I give up such devotees at any time? (Bhag. 9.4.65, text)

It is also generally accepted that the highest and most perfect devotees are the residents of the spiritual world. So, they are certainly the most dear to the Lord. Throughout sastra the spiritual world is referred to as perfect, infallible and eternally blissful.

Which is directly under the protection of My spiritual energy of unadulterated bliss. That is the ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity. (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text)

Additionally it is stated in many places in sastra that the Lord easily excuses any offenses by His surrendered devotees:

He is so gentle that even if His servant is implicated in a great offense, He does not take it very seriously. (Brs. 2.1.138, text)

If devotees completely in love with You sometimes fall from the path of devotion, they do not fall like nondevotees, for You still protect them. (Bhag. 10.2.33, text)

If such a surrendered soul accidentally commits some sinful activity, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is seated within everyone's heart, immediately takes away the reaction to such sin. (Bhag. 11.5.42, text)

Declare it boldly that My devotee will never perish. (Bhag.-gita 9.31)

Characteristically, the Supreme Personality of Godhead does not take seriously an offense committed by a pure devotee. (Cc. Antya-lila 1.107, text)

Even if His servant is implicated in a great offense, He does not take it very seriously. (Cc. Antya-lila 1.108, text)

To the eternal servitors of the Lord, the Lord is pleased to give all protection at all times. (Bhag. 1.14.32-3, purp.)

The Lord is equal in behavior to all living beings, but He is partial to His pure devotees, being very affectionate toward them. (Bhag. 1.14.38)

The Lord can tolerate insults upon Himself by any miscreant because the father tolerates even insults from the son. But He never tolerates insults upon His devotees. (Bhag. 1.15.10, purp.)

The Lord cannot tolerate any inconvenience on the part of the devotee. He is therefore famous as bhakta-vatsala. (Bhag. 3.16.7, purp.)

To conclude that the Lord has allowed or arranged for an uncountably huge number of dear associates of His to systematically and continuously fall from the spiritual world (His perfect abode) to hellish repeated mundane births is illogical and ridiculous, in view of the above references.

4-The jivas originate from the tatastha

Innumerable references from prominent acaryas, some of which are given below, clearly and repeatedly state that the jivas originate from the tatastha-sakti of the Lord. It is not clearly stated anywhere in sastra that all the jivas bound by maya in the material world originated in eternal lila with the Lord in Vaikuntha. All references from books printed by the Gaudiya Matha are quoted exactly as translated by their leading devotee scholars, portions of which were directly overseen by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. These books are originally written in their native language (Bengali) and many of these disciples were personally trained by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Every single disciple (or grand disciple) of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta in the Gaudiya Matha that we have spoken with or read their writings has unhesitatingly and adamently stated that noone falls from the spiritual world. To state that we fall from the spiritual world is to say that they are all wrong.

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. (Tattva Viveka 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55)

Among the unlimited potencies of Sri Krsna, there is one known as tatastha-sakti (border-potency). From that sakti comes out the jiva-souls remaining at the junction of the two worlds, viz., the transcendental and the mundane ones, may contact them both. In its composition it is only the atomic cit (pure sentience) . . . On account of the purity in its composition, it has got the capacity for being the eternal denizen with divine bliss in the transcendental power. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 4, page 46)

A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world-they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya'with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7, page 95-96)

The semblance or dim reflection of the internal Cit-potency is the jiva-sakti (potency) or Tatastha-sakti stationed in between cit-jagat and a-cit-jagat or mayic-jagat whereas the shadow or perverted reflection of that internal cit potency is the maya-sakti or external a-cit potency. All the jivas emanate from the tatastha-sakti of God and accordingly the mundane worlds emanate from the maya-sakti of God. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, chap. 1, Introd., By Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

The jiva-souls are emanated from the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna and they are spiritual but atomic. In the very self of the jiva-soul or in his constitution practically there remains no maya. As jiva-souls are atomic in size and being emanated from the tatastha-sakti of Sri Krsna (viz. from the intermediary-potency which exists in between cit-jagat and mayic-jagat) jiva-soul is liable to be subjected to maya when becomes averse to his constitutional right of serving the Lord. Jiva-soul in bondage misconstrues himself as the doer and enjoyer, therefore is affinated to the adopted bodies which are provided by prakrti. A jiva by dint of spiritual virtue may possess steadfast devotion to Sri Krsna and getting rid of worldly affinity goes back to the abode of bliss. (Sri Srimad Bhagavat-arka Marichimala, ch. 7, text 34, purport by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura)

The constituent particles, in the form of pencils of effulgence of Maha-Visnu are manifest as the individual souls (jivas). (Brahma-Samhita 10, purp.)

The cit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are the innumerable minute jivas. The Jivas emanate from the tatastha sakti (border potency) of Sri Krsna; so is the nature to tatastha (border potency) of Sri Krsna. (Jaiva Dharma, chapter 15, page 213)

The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. (Jaiva Dharma, page 234)

There are two types of jivas liberated from maya--nitya-mukta, eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. (Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251)

The following excerpt [translated by leading devotee scholars] is taken directly from the Jaiva Dharma without any interpretation or change, exactly as originally published in English:

Vrajanatha: Now my question is whether the cit-potency has framed the jiva with the tatastha (border) natural?

Babaji: No, the cit-potency is Krsna's plenary potency; whatever she produces is all eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the cit-sakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-sakti of Sri Krsna. Cit-sakti is Sri Krsna's full (plenary) sakti, whereas the jiva-sakti is the incomplete sakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic cit. Krsna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the sakti He applies. When established in His essential cit-sakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krsna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha.

When He desired to have His adherent attendance 'nitya-parsada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka-Vrndavana, Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parsada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Visnu, viz. Karanodakasayi, Ksirodadasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krsna with cit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krsna.

Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarsana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Narayana.

Mahavisnu, the Incarnation of Sankarsana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-sakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha-sakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas. (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-sakti that begets the jivas, and not the cit-sakti. (Jaiva-Dharma, p. 215-216)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

Visnu has three energies, one of them is meant for manifestation of His eternal abode, another Potency is for creating all human souls who are emanations from His tatastha-sakti found between the temporal and eternal worlds. By this potency He creates human souls. The human soul has two different predilections. If he desires to serve Godhead he is allowed into the Eternal Region. If he desires to lord it over this world he comes down for enjoying in different capacities the products of the Deluding Potency. (Sri Caitanya's Teacings-Part II, Chapter One, Third Edition, p. 365-6 by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta)

Tatastha has both the power of associating with temporal as well as eternal planes. Souls who have got their stations at tatastha have got free will. Each of the individual souls by exercising his free will can abuse or properly use his independence . . . The souls in the tatastha position are not one, but many in number. Thay are not to associate themselves with unalloyed Cit Sakti or unalloyed Acit or Maya Sakti. In the tatastha position, souls do not show any activity but they are found to be in an indolent stage. (Sri Chaitanya's Teachings-Part II, Chapter One, p. 391-2, Third Edition)

The inconceivably narrow line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Cit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the Acit world or the region of maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Cit or the Acit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that . . . (From an English article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati entitled, Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, 10th paragraph)

Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja [named by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as Sastra-nipuna, one who is highly learned in sastra] explains similarly in Search For Sri Krsna:

How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world? This is a broad question, which requires some background information.

There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

In his book, "Subjective Evolution of Consciousness," Srila B. R.Sridhara Maharaja explains further:

Dr. T. D. Singh (Bhaktisvarupa Damodara Swami, GBC, Iskcon Acarya): When scientists speak of evolution they mean that life has evolved from matter. I have heard you speak of evolution with quite a different concept. You say that everything is evolving from consciousness.

Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, consciousness comes first and then matter. The basis of all things material is consciousness, which is spiritual. Consciousness can contact consciousness directly. When consciousness comes into the stage of matter, material conception, we experience a kind of vague consciousness; first there is hazy consciousness and then material consciousness. But everything has its spiritual side. And as eternal souls, our direct connection is really only with the conscious aspect of existence. For example, the Earth is conceived of as a woman. According to the Vedas, the presiding deity of the Earth is a woman. And the sun is conceived of as a devata, a male god.

The soul, coming into material consciousness, must come through some hazy reflection of consciousnes, cidabhasa. Only then can the soul experience material consciousness. Before pure consciousness evolves to material consciousness, it will pass through a hazy stage of consciousness or cidabhasa. So in the background of every material thing, there is a spiritual conception. This cannot but be true.

Dr. T. D. Singh: What is cidabhasa?

Sridhara Maharaja: Something like mind. Suppose consciousness comes to feel matter. When consciousness is coming to the material world to know the material world, it has to first pass through material consciousness, and then it can feel what is matter.

According to Darwins Theory, matter gradually produces consciousness, but before producing consciousness it must produce some hazy consciousness, then mind, and then the soul. But in reality, it is just the opposite. So subjective evolution parallels objective or material evolution. But in the evolution of consciousness, the supersubject is first, then the individual soul or jiva-subject is next. Then, from the subjective consciousness of the jivas, matter is produced. But consciousness must penetrate hazy consciousness to perceive matter.

Consciousness cannot jump at once into the conception of matter; it must pass through a process to come to material consciousness. From the marginal position, from the verge of the higher eternal potency, evolution and dissolution of this material world begins. This takes place only on the outskirts of svarupa-sakti, which is the system responsible for the evolution of the spiritual plane, and is an eternally evolving dynamic whole. It is not that nondifferentiation is the origin of differentiation. An eternally differentiated substance exists. That plane is filled with lila, dynamic pastimes. If a static thing can be conceived of as eternal, then why can't a dynamic thing be conceived of as eternal? That plane of svarupa-sakti is fully evolved within. It is eternal. Evolution and dissolution concern only the degradation of the subtle spirit to the gross material platform and his evolution towards perfection. Here there is evolution and dissolution, but these things do not exist in the eternal abode of svarupa-sakti.

Dr. T. D. Singh: Objective evolution is what modern science calls Darwinian evolution, but how does subjective evolution unfold in Krsna conscious science?

Sridhara Maharaja: You have to take the example of hypnotism. Through a form of mystic "hypnotism," the supersubject controls the subject to see a particular thing, and he is bound to see that. One may think that as we see a stone, the stone compels us to see it as stone, but it is just the opposite: we are compelled to see it as stone being under the influence of the supersubject who displays everything as he likes. The objective world is fully controlled by the subjective. This is confirmed in Bhagavad-gita, where Krsna says pasya me yogam aisvaryam: "If I say, 'Behold my mystic power,' you are bound to see it. You have no other choice."

The soul, when going to experience any material conception, will have to pass through a medium which influences his consciousness to see things as material. What is concrete matter is unknown. It is a mere effect of consciousness. As everything material must have some conscious origin, or origin in personal consciousness, there must be a personal conception of the sun, the moon, the Earth, and all the planets. Before we reach the conception of a shadow or other object, the soul has to pass through a conscious stage. That stage has some spiritual existence as a person. Therefore the Bhagavatam refers to the sun, the moon, and the planet Rahu, as persons.

Student: I have heard it said that according to Vedic ontology, the soul is marginal. Do the jiva souls in the marginal or tatastha position have knowledge that there is an upper and a lower world, that there is suffering in the material world and divine service in the spiritual world?

Sridhara Maharaja: A jiva soul has adaptability of both sides; marginal means "endowed with adaptability towards both the spiritual and material worlds without participation or any experience of either."

The marginal soul (tatastha) has only seed adaptability towards both. He is situated in the margin between the spiritual and material worlds, and the margin strictly means that one is in a position to analyze adaptability. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. The possibility of either is there in potentiality, but he is left to exercise his freedom. Because the soul is a conscious unit, he has free will. Freedom is inseparable from consciousness. A conscious unit and freedom are one and the same. Conscious atom means endowed with freedom. Without freedom, it is matter.

Student: The soul has freedom, but does it have knowledge of the different aspects of reality?

Sridhara Maharaja: Because the soul is very small, his freedom is also imperfect; a soul in the marginal position is very vulnerable. Freedom does not mean absolute freedom. Because the soul's existence is small, his freedom is defective-there is the possibility of committing a mistake. Freedom of the minute soul does not mean perfect freedom. Complete freedom would be perfect reality, but the minute soul is endowed with the smallest atomic freedom. This is the position of the atoms of consciousness, and this is why they are vulnerable. They may judge properly or improperly; that is the position of those who are situated in the marginal position. If the soul were not endowed with the freedom to determine his position, we would have to blame God for our suffering. But we cannot blame God. The starting point of the soul's suffering is within himself.

The first cause of our entanglement with material nature was our mixing with maya in a play of curiosity. But as much as we make friends with her, so much she comes to devour us. ln this way we are in the clutches of maya. But in the beginning our involvement was very slight, like one experimenting with drugs. The beginning of our play with maya involved the voluntary misuse of our free will, and that has led us to this present stage where maya has devoured us. Maya means our attraction for intoxication: where there is love of exploitation, there is maya. And truth is the opposite of exploitation. Truth is found in dedicating everything for the center, for Krsna.

Student: If in the marginal position (tatastha) the soul has exposure to both reality and illusion, why doesn't he have enough discrimination to come to the right path?

Sridhara Maharaja: He has no real depth of discrimination; only a little discrimination. But it is there. However small it may be, it is there.

Srila Prabhupada writes similarly:

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5, purport)

Thus the body is considered material and the soul is considered spiritual. The origin of them both, however, is the same Supreme Personality of Godhead. . . Everything is born of the Supreme Brahman, from which everything emanates as different energies. (Bhag. 8.12.8, purport)

The symptoms of the rainy season may be compared to the symptoms of the living entities who are covered by the three modes of material nature. The unlimited sky is like the Supreme Brahman, and the tiny living entities are like the covered sky, or Brahman covered by the three modes of material nature. Originally, everyone is part and parcel of Brahman. The Supreme Brahman, or the unlimited sky, can never be covered by a cloud, but a portion of it can be covered. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. But they are only an insignificant portion of the Supreme Lord. This portion is covered by the modes of material nature, and therefore the living entities are residing within this material world. The brahmajyoti-spiritual effulgence-is just like the sunshine; as the sunshine is full of molecular shining particles, so the brahmajyoti is full of minute portions of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Out of that unlimited expansion of minute portions of the Supreme Lord, some are covered by the influence of material nature, whereas others are free. [Krsna Book, Ch. 20, Description of Autumn]

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

5-The exaulted feelings of Krsna's nitya-parsadas are always beyond the reaches of maya

The eternal associates of Krsna and Narayana (Gopas, gopis, older gopis, older gopas, servants of Lord Narayana, and all other residents of the spiritual world) cannot have any envious thoughts, for no one is allowed in the spiritual world who is not 100% pure. They are completely and ecstatically absorbed in loving and serving their wonderful Lord. The following references show that the residents are experiencing so much bliss, that any pleasure to be derived from enjoying separately, is insignificant in comparison and that they have no reason to become envious. In section two it is documented that the spiritual world and it's residents are suddha-sattva. We have also shown previously in section three that envy cannot exist in the spiritual world.

Sastric texts:

A [devotee] who has once relished the taste of the lotus feet of the Lord can do nothing but remember that ecstasy again and again. (Bhag. 1.5.19, text)

A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text)

If one cherishes pure loving devotion to Me, thinking of Me as his son, his friend or his beloved, regarding himself as great and considering Me his equal or inferior, I become subordinate to him. (Cc. Adi-lila 4.21-22)

Pure love of God manifests as the most subtle consciousness, devoid of material qualities and material desires, increasing at every moment and never interrupted. (Narada-bhakti-sutra, text 54, translation by Gopiparanadhana)

Prahlada Maharaja:

[Due to devotional love] I have no independence. (Bhag. 7.5.14, text)

Srila Rupa Gosvami:

According to His sweet will, the Lila Potency also infused the hearts of His personal associates with the devotional dispositions appropriate to their service. (Quoted in Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Prakasini-vrtti Commentary on Sri Brahma-samhita Vs. 37)

All the eternally perfected devotees have eternal and blissful qualities just like Lord Mukunda. Their supreme love for Krsna is millions and millions of times more than their love for their own self or body. (Brs. 2.1.290)

Srila Sanatana Gosvami:

In Vaikuntha the devotees feel . . . complete bliss. (Brhad-bhag. 2.4.154)

Indeed, it is the nature of that planet (Goloka) that even without the association of Sri Krsna one desires to live there. No one even desires to go anywhere else. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.366)

Sanatana Gosvami comments on Brhad-bhag. 2.6.366, "Even without the association of Lord Krsna, the Vrajavasis desire to stay only in Goloka or Vraja-bhumi."

Whether boys, youths, or grown-up persons--every one of the millions of cowherd residents of Vraja feels himself the dearest to Krsna. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.211)

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura:

With the appearance of prema, the anarthas are completely eradicated. When a devotee atttains the Lord, the eradication of anarthas is absolute and there is no possibility of their reappearance. (Madhurya Kadambini, Third chapter)

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura:

All these conclusions inform us that intrinsically there is no distinction between the manifest and unmanifest Pastimes. In his commentary of this sloka and in his commentary of Ujjvala-nilamani and in Krsna-sandarbha and other exalted works our most revered Acarya Sri Jiva Goswami has stated that Krsna's manifest Pastimes are conducted by Yogamaya; because those Pastimes are associated with material nature, some Mayik or worldly traits are apparent in them, which can in no way be present in the intrinsic Transcendental pastimes. (Prakasini-vrtti Commentary on Sri Brahma-samhita Vs. 37)

In the state of prema the devotee's very life is Krsna. (Comm., Siksastaka 8)

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:

The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.)

Even the transcendental wives of Lord Sri Krsna did not know completely the unfathomable glories of the Lord. This ignorance is not mundane because there is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates. The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamaya, the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend with the cowherd boys or even with friends like Arjuna. He plays exactly like a son in the presence of Yasodamata, He plays exactly like a lover in the presence of the cowherd damsels, and He plays exactly like a husband in the presence of the queens of Dvaraka. Such devotees of the Lord never think of the Lord as the Supreme, but think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees, who act as His associates in the spiritual sky, where there are innumerable Vaikuntha planets. When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. Such devotees of the Lord are all liberated souls, perfect representations of the marginal or internal potency in complete negation of the influence of the external potency. (Bhag. 1.11.39, purp.)

In the transcendental state the living being is pure in his consciousness, and as such he has no false ego to lord it over the material nature. Rather, his pure consciousness directs him to surrender unto the Supreme Lord...The Vaikuntha planets are also forms of eternity, bliss and knowledge, and therefore the devotees of the Lord, who are admitted into the abode of the Lord, also get bodies of eternity, bliss and knowledge. As such there is no difference between one and another. The Lord's abode, name, fame, entourage, etc., are of the same transcendental quality, and how this transcendental quality differs from the material world is explained herewith in this verse. (Bhag. 2.2.17, purp.)

In that sky, which is far, far beyond the material sky and its sevenfold coverings . . . pure devotees of the Lord are absolutely in harmony with the Personality of Godhead, or in other words, they always think of the Lord as their only dependable friend and well-wisher. (Bhag. 2.2.18, purp.)

Attainment of love of Godhead means complete freedom from all other attractions. (Bhag. 2.2.31, purp., 5th paragraph)

The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Narayana . . . That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amrta. As described in the Vedas, utamrtatvasyesanah: the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purp.)

A pure devotee of the Lord is so purified in his heart that he cannot leave the shelter of Lord Krsna in any circumstances. There is no self-interest in such service. (Bhag. 2.8.6, purp.)

. . . in that pure conscious state [as in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.)

The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely, suddha-sattva, the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.)

The inhabitants of Vaikuntha, however, are so interested in glorifying the Lord that they do not like the disturbance of such a nice breeze while they are chanting the Lord's glories. In other words, they are pure devotees. They consider glorification of the Lord more important than their own sense gratification. In the Vaikuntha planets there is no question of sense gratification. To smell the fragrance of a blossoming flower is certainly very nice, but it is simply for sense gratification. The inhabitants of Vaikuntha give first preference to the service of the Lord, not their own sense gratification. Serving the Lord in transcendental love yields such transcendental pleasure that, in comparison, sense gratification is counted as insignificant. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.)

This verse reveals the absolute nature of Vaikuntha. There is no difference between the birds there and the human residents. The situation in the spiritual sky is that everything is spiritual and variegated. Spiritual variegatedness means that everything is animate. There is nothing inanimate. Even the trees, the ground, the plants, the flowers, the birds and the beasts are all on the level of Krsna consciousness. The special feature of Vaikunthaloka is that there is no question of sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.18, purp.)

The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. This is true even among the flowers, which are all conscious of the greatness of tulasi. In the Vaikuntha world entered by the four Kumaras, even the birds and flowers are conscious of service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.19, purp.)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so: they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. Similarly, one who learns the faithful service of Lord Krsna through the Krsna consciousness movement will always remain in Vaikunthaloka and have nothing to do with the material world. (Bhag. 6.1.34.6, purp.)

For iron to be attracted by a magnet is natural. Similarly, for all living entities to be attracted toward Krsna is natural, and therefore the Lord's real name is Krsna, meaning He who attracts everyone and everything. The typical examples of such attraction are found in Vrndavana, where everything and everyone is attracted by Krsna. The elderly persons like Nanda Maharaja and Yasodadevi, the friends like Sridama, Sudama and the other cowherd boys, the gopis like Srimati Radharani and Her associates, and even the birds, beasts, cows and calves are attracted. The flowers and fruits in the gardens are attracted, the waves of the Yamuna are attracted, and the land, sky, trees, plants, animals and all other living beings are attracted by Krsna. This is the natural situation of everything in Vrndavana.

Just contrary to the affairs of Vrndavana is the material world, where no one is attracted by Krsna and everyone is attracted by maya. This is the difference between the spiritual and material worlds. (Bhag. 7.5.14, purp.)

Although all the elderly gopis knew that Krsna was the son of mother Yasoda, they still desired, "If Krsna had become my son, I would also have taken care of Him like mother Yasoda." This was their inner ambition. Now, in order to please them, Krsna personally took the role of their sons and fulfilled their desire. They enhanced their special love for Krsna by embracing Him and feeding Him, and Krsna tasted their breast milk to be just like a nectarean beverage. While thus bewildering Brahma, He enjoyed the special transcendental pleasure created by yogamaya between all the other mothers and Himself. (Bhag. 10.13.22, purp.)

The love between the Lord and His pure devotee is an ocean of spiritual bliss .... When all is said and done, pleasure in this world means sex. But this mundane sexual attraction is simply a perverted reflection of the transcendental loving affairs between Krsna and His eternal associates in the spiritual world. The gopis of Vrndavana are unsophisticated village girls, whereas the queens in Dvarakä are aristocratic young ladies. But both the gopis and the queens are overwhelmed with love for Krsna. As the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna displays the highest perfection of beauty, strength, wealth, fame, knowledge and renunciation and is thus completely satisfied by His own supreme position. He reciprocates spiritual loving affairs with the gopis and queens simply for their sake. (Bhag. 11.6.18 , purp.)

Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately explained how this verse applies to the eternally liberated residents of Sri Vrndavana, the Lord's abode. One of the fundamental philosophical principles of the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the distinction between two types of illusion, Yoga-maya and Maha-maya, the spiritual and material states of existence, respectively. Although Krsna is God, the omnipotent, omniscient Supreme Being, His intimate associates in the spiritual world love Him so much that they see Him as their beloved child, friend, lover and so on. So that their ecstatic love can transcend the boundaries of mere reverence, they forget that Krsna is the Supreme God of all the universes, and thus their pure, intimate love expands unlimitedly. One may consider their activities of treating Krsna as a helpless child, a handsome boyfriend, or a playmate to be a manifestation of avidya, ignorance of Lord Krsna's position as God, but the residents of Vrndavana are in fact ignoring the secondary majesty of Krsna and focusing intensely on His infinite beauty, which is the essence of His existence. (Bhag. 10.28.13, purp. by disciples of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada)

The inhabitants of Vaikunthaloka do not possess material senses with which to lord it over material nature. (Cc. Adi-lila 5.22, purp.)

Lord Krsna's friends in Vrndavana, headed by Sridama, have pure fraternal affection for Lord Krsna and have no idea of His opulences. [Cc. Adi-lila 6.62]

The wonderful activities of the gross body and subtle mind are always imperfect. They are below the degree of spiritual understanding and are ephemeral. The spiritual mellow is eternally wonderful and is described as purna, suddha, nitya-mukta-that is, complete, perfectly pure and eternally liberated from all material conceptions. (Cc. Madhya-lila 8.193, purp.)

In the Brahma-samhita (5.37) it is said: "I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord. He resides in His own realm, Goloka, with Radha, who resembles His own spiritual figure and who embodies the ecstatic potency [hladini]. Their companions are Her confidantes, who embody extensions of Her bodily form and who are imbued and permeated with ever-blissful spiritual rasa." In the spiritual world, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna, has expanded Himself in His spiritual potency. He has His eternal form of bliss and knowledge (sac-cid-ananda-vigraha). Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ananda. Everyone there is of the same potencyananda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.)

When the individual jiva souls are under the control of the internal energy, their only engagement is the satisfaction of Krsna, or Visnu. (Nectar of Instruction, Text 2, purport)

Although maya may be present, it cannot disturb a devotee once he attains the bhava stage. This is because the devotee can see the real position of maya. Maya means forgetfulness of Krsna, and forgetfulness of Krsna and Krsna consciousness stand side by side like light and shadow. If one remains in shadow, he cannot enjoy the facilities offered by light, and if one remains in light, he cannot be disturbed by the darkness of shadow. (Nectar of Instruction, Text 8, purp. last parag.)

No one can serve the Supreme Lord as His associate without being situated in his pure spiritual identity. That identity is completely free from all material contamination. (Teachings of Lord Chaitanya, Chapter 31)

The cows' affection for their calves and the elder gopis' affection for the boys causelessly increased. Their affection increased naturally, even though the calves and boys were not their offspring. Although the cows and elderly gopis of Vrndavana had greater affection for Krsna than for their own offspring, after this incident their affection for their offspring increased unlimitedly, exactly as it did for Krsna. For one year continuously, Krsna Himself expanded as the calves and cowherd boys and was present in the pasturing ground . . . When Balarama saw this extraordinary exchange of affection between the cows and their calves and between the fathers and their children-when neither the calves nor the children needed so much care-He began to wonder why this extraordinary thing had happened. He was astonished to see all the residents of Vrndavana so affectionate to their own children, exactly as they had been to Krsna. Similarly, the cows had grown affectionate to their calves-as much as to Krsna. (Krsna Book, Chapter 13, The Stealing of the Boys and Calves by Brahma)

The inhabitants of Vrndavana had sacrificed everything for Krsna, simply being captivated by the lotus eyes of the Lord. Because of their great desire to love Krsna, they never desired anything like elevation to the heavenly planets or merging into the effulgence of Brahman to become one with the Absolute Truth. They were not even interested in enjoying a life of opulence, but were satisfied in living a simple life in the village as cowherds. They were always absorbed in thoughts of Krsna and did not desire any personal benefits, and they were all so much in love with Him that in His absence their voices faltered when they began to inquire from Balaramaji. (Krsna Book, Chapter 65, Lord Balarama visits Vrndavana)

The gopis had no desire other than to satisfy Krsna. All the gopis tried to satisfy Him, including the elder gopis, Yasoda and her friends, and so also did the elderly gopas like Nanda Maharaja and his friends. The boys and girls of Vrndavana who were of the same age as Krsna also tried to satisfy Him. Everyone tried to satisfy Krsna-even the cows, the flowers, the fruits, and the water of Vrndavana. This is because everything in Vrndavana is spiritual; nothing is material. (Teachings of Queen Kunti, Chapter 25, Unalloyed Devotion)

The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-ranjana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-ranjana. [710217CC.GOR]

All the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they were thinking, We are all Krsna's. Central point is Krsna. That is the beauty of Vrndavana. All the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the elderly cowherd men, the boys, the girls, the trees, the river, the birds, the beasts-everyone-they are simply thinking, I am Krsna's. (710629AR.LA)

The distinction means Krsna is predominator and everyone is predominated. Just like the gopis. Krsna is the predominator, and the gopis and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana-Nanda Maharaja, Yasoda and the cowherd boys, servant, trees, plants, flowers, water, animals, cows-everyone is predominated. Krsna is only predominator. That is real happiness. Whenever there is any trouble in Vrndavana, they approach the predominator and immediately the predominator takes care and they're happy. This is Vrndavana life. (721109ND.VRN)

Krsna is the master, controller of everything, but to the pure devotee He becomes dependent. So why the pure devotee will ask for anything else? Adurlabham atma-bhaktau. For a devotee, Krsna is within the palms of a devotee. Ajita, jito 'py asau. Although Krsna is not conquerable, but He likes to be conquered by His devotee. That is the position. Just like He willingly placed Himself to be conquered by Mother Yasoda, to be conquered by Radharani, to be conquered by His friends. Krsna became defeated and He has to take His friend on the shoulder... That is Krsna's position-the Supreme Lord. In Vaikuntha, there is only praising. There is no such thing. But in Vrndavana Krsna is free to accept insult from His devotee. The people do not know that, what is Vrndavana life. So devotees are so exalted. Radharani orders, "Don't allow Krsna to come here." Krsna cannot come in. He flatters the other gopis: "Please allow Me to go there." "No, no. There is no order. You cannot go." So Krsna likes that. But the Mayavadis, they cannot understand that the Supreme Absolute Truth can be controlled by the devotee.(730130ND.CAL)

In the Vaikuntha planets, everyone is four-handed like Narayana, and everyone is equally opulent. In Goloka Vrndavana, Krsna and the cowherd boys are equally opulent. In Vrndavana, the cowherd boys do not know that Krsna is God. They look on Krsna as an equal. This is the opulence of their devotional position . . . In the Vaikuntha the devotees or the inhabitants, they are equally opulent. Everyone is like Narayana, four-handed, equally opulent. Just like in Vrndavana also, Goloka Vrndavana. Krsna and the cowherds boy, they are equally opulent. The cowherds boys in Vrndavana, they do not know that Krsna is God, Krsna is greater than him. No. They think, "as Krsna is, I am also." They are so opulent. (741206SB.BOM)

[In the] spiritual world, everyone is eternal servant of Krsna. There is no more jati, no more distinction. Everything serving. That one. The master is also spiritual, and the servant is also spiritual, and there is no other relationship. Here in the material world we artificially want to become . . . we want to become God. But in the spiritual world there is no such conception. In the spiritual world there are also living entities. They are called nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha means eternally perfect. (741216SB.BOM)

That is called spiritual world, Vaikunthaloka. They are free. Neither there is birth, death, old age, and disease. These things are absent. Everyone is full of transcendental bliss. (750105SB.BOM)

In the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Krsna, with Krsna. That is spiritual world. In Vrndavana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Krsna on equal terms. They do not know Krsna is God. They simply know how to love Krsna, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Krsna is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Krsna wants that. That is Goloka Vrndavana worship. Simply the center is Krsna, and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they love Krsna, and they do not know anything except Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. Everyone knows that "Krsna is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Krsna is my son," somebody knows that "Krsna is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Krsna is my lover." But center is Krsna. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gopis, and the cowherds boy, Krsna's father, Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's mother, Yasomati, and . . . Everyone's center is Krsna, "How Krsna will be happy?" This is Vrndavana life. (750312DP.LON)

So the same attachment is there between Krsna and devotee, either in the santa . . . Some devotees have become there land, water, tree, flower. They are attached to Krsna. Some devotees, they have become servants. They are attached to Krsna. And some devotees, they have become cowherds boy, friendly. They are attached to Krsna. And some devotees have become Krsna's father, mother, uncle, elderly. They are attached to Krsna. And some devotees, they have become gopis, young girls, and love Krsna, dance with Him rasa dance. So in this way Vrndavana means this attachment to Krsna. Central point is Krsna, but the varieties of attachment, they are the same. The only difference is that this attachment centering round Krsna is never broken. If you love Krsna as your child, just like Ajamila is loving his youngest child so much, similarly, if you love Krsna, then it will continue eternally. (750709SB.CHI)

It is village, and the central point is Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. There the gopis, they are village girls and the cowherd boys, they are also village boys. Nanda Maharaja is the head of the village, agriculturist. Similarly, the elderly persons and the elderly gopis, mother Yasoda and her other friends--all are attracted by Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. They even did not know what is Krsna. They did not know by reading Vedas, Puranas, Vedanta, to understand Krsna. But their natural affection was for Krsna. (770124LE.BHU)

The eternal gopi residents of Goloka derive higher pleasure from serving the Lord than serving their own senses:

The pleasure of Radha, the abode of [Krsna's] love, is ten million times greater [than Krsna's pleasure]. (Chaitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila 4.32, text)

The pleasure enjoyed by Radharani, the asraya, is many times greater than the pleasure I feel. Therefore, to feel the pleasure of the asraya category, Lord Krsna appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. (Cc. Adi-lila 4.135, text & purp.)

There is an inexplicable fact about the natural inclinations of the gopis. The gopis never want to enjoy themselves with Krsna personally. The happiness of the gopis increases ten million times when they serve to engage Sri Sri Radha and Krsna in Their transcendental pastimes [rather than enjoy directly with Krsna themselves]. (Cc. Madhya-lila 8.207-8, text)

When the nectar of Krsna's pastimes is sprinkled on Srimati Radharani, all Her friends, the gopis, immediately appreciate the pleasure a hundred times more than if they were sprinkled themselves. (Cc. Madhya-lila 8.211, text)

The gopis are not as pleased when they directly mix with Krsna as when they serve to unite Srimati Radharani with Krsna. Their transcendental pleasure lies in uniting Them. (Cc. Madhya-lila 8.210, purp.)

What more can we say?

6-The Lord's servants come to the material world

This somewhat complicated subject will be discussed in future separate essays in greater detail. Tulasi is not an ordinary living entity. It is mentioned many times in sastra and in Srila Prabhupada's purports (pertinent quotes included within this presentation) that the descent of the Lord's nitya-parsadas is for the purpose of His lila and is not in the same category as the appearance of the nitya-baddha living entities. Nor is the descent of Tulasi an example of a resident of the spiritual world becoming envious of Krsna.

The example of Kala Krsnadasa is inappropriate since he was already in the material world. Furthermore, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not allow him to fall away but protected him and kept him with Him for a year. Kala Krsnadasa was then given the shelter of Nityananda Prabhu and the nectarean service of informing Mother Saci and the residents of Navadvipa of the Lords South Indian tour in great detail.

Other examples of falldown from spiritual positions show that each case is special, and those devotees who were spiritually situated were simply taking part in the Lord's transcendental lila. Citraketu did not fall into material life. It is clear from his prayers to the Lord (as Vrtrasura) that he was still very much an exalted devotee, that his bhakti was not covered, and commentators have explained that this [apparent falldown] was a special favor of the Lord for it increased his attachment to the Lord. Srila Prabhupada explains very clearly that Jaya and Vijaya's fall was a special arrangement of the Lord for His lila (Bhag. 3.16.26-27, purp.). Jiva Gosvami writes in Priti-sandarbha, 7, that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons, within they knew themselves and kept their spiritual form. Additionally, Srila Prabhupada writes,

The conclusion [of the Jaya-Vijaya "falldown"] is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

The fall of Bharata Maharaja was also special as he was protected by the Lord. Even in the body of a deer and later as an apparently incoherent Jada Bharat he remembered his past experiences and Krsna consciousness and perfected himself in the next life.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in this regard, writes in his commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.33,

Even if they fall, they become more attached to You, just as when King Citraketu, Bharata Maharaja and King Indradyumna had a so-called fall down. In their fallen forms, such as Vrtrasura [previously King Citraketu], their love multiplied hundreds of times. Therefore, the fall of a devotee causes his love to increase.

Srila Prabhupada's purport to Bhag. 10.2.33 is in complete agreement with that of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. Additionally he writes, "There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya." (SP Ltr. Rayarama, Dec. 2, 1968) If everyone fell, Srila Prabhupada wouldn't have written "there are instances," which suggests that this is true only in a few special cases, as we are presenting. Additionally, in reference to Jaya and Vijay, Srila Prabhupada states in other purports such as Bhag. 3.16.29 and Bhag. 7.1.35 that no one falls.

An apparent contradiction also manifests between statements of Srila Prabhupada regarding the appearance of Jaya and Vijaya in the material world. In the first set of quotes below, Srila Prabhupada warns us to be careful and follow the spiritual principles carefully or we will fall down, even from Vaikuntha, just as Jaya and Vijaya fell from the spiritual world. So, we should be careful, "don't think you have achieved the goal, you can fall down from anywhere." In the second series of purports Srila Prabhupada states that actually these pure devotees have not fallen, thus revealing the hidden truth of their exhaulted status, that they voluntarily came down to satisfy the Lord's desire to fight. Those who consider the first group of statements as representative of the entire issue, and ignore the second set of quotes, not giving a proper explanation, leave us hanging with an incomplete and inconsistent presentation.

There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. (68-12-02)

So there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God. Jaya-Vijaya, they had to become demons. If we do not follow strictly our regulative principles, routine work, then the whole scheme will be failure. Then, instead of Christianity, it will be "churchianity." (730919rc.bom)

After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down.

Now, when the spirit soul falls down? Just like Jaya-Vijaya. Jaya and Vijaya became asuras. They fell down from Vaikuntha. But they became asuras under the circumstances. (Bhag.-gita class, Honolulu: July 4, 1974)

To be victimized by maya is possi.... There is possibility.... Just like Jaya and Vijaya. They were gatekeepers in the Vaikuntha. They also fell down, Hiranyakasipu. So this falldown, there is possibility in any moment because we are very small. We can be captivated by maya at any moment. Therefore we shall be very, very careful. (760311mw.may)

In the following excerpts Srila Prabhupada states something very different; that Jaya and Vijaya are pure devotees who have descended to the material world by the Lords arrangement:

This incident, therefore, proves that those who have once entered a Vaikuntha planet can never fall down. The case of Jaya and Vijaya is not a falldown; it is just an accident. (Bhag. 3.16.12, purp.)

A devotee once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident. [Jaya and Vijaya] (Bhag. 3.16.29, purp.)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. Therefore it is to understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.)

The conchshell the Lord took from Pancajana, which is called Pancajanya, is the same one He sounded at the beginning of the Bhagavad-gita. According to the acaryas, Pancajana had become a demon in a way similar to that of Jaya and Vijaya. In other words, though appearing in the form of a demon, he was actually a devotee of the Lord. (Bhag. 10.45.42-44, purp.)

Similarly, Krsna does not fight with anyone ordinary, but rather with some of His great devotees. Because Krsna wants to fight, some of His devotees come down to this material world to become His enemies and fight with Him. For example, the Lord descended to kill Hiranyakasipu and Hiranyaksa. Should we think that these were ordinary living entities?

No, they were the great devotees Jaya and Vijaya, who came to this world because Krsna wanted to fight. In the Vaikuntha world, the spiritual world, there is no possibility of fighting, because everyone there engages in Krsna's service. With whom will He fight? Therefore He sends some devotee in the garb of an enemy and comes here to this material world to fight with him. (TQK: chapter 12: Bewildering Pastimes)

The fighting spirit is there in Krsna also. So when He wants to fight, in the Vaikuntha there is no possibility of fight. Nobody will be able to fight. Nobody will agree to fight. So there is no fighting. Fighting means must be inimical propensity. Unless you think "I am your enemy," and I think "you are my enemy," the fighting is not going on. If I think, "I am fighting with my friend," it will be false fighting. Fighting must be between two strong enemies. Therefore sometimes Jaya Vijaya come. The question is that why the living entity falls down? It is not falls down. Just like Jaya Vijaya came just to satisfy his master. His master desired fighting, so some of His servant went to the material world and became great enemy like Hiranyakasipu. Ravana. For killing Ravana, Rama is coming. Well, Ravana could not be killed without Rama. (720405SB.MEL)

When Krsna wants to fight, who will fight with Him? Some of His devotee, great devotee will fight with Him. Not ordinary. Just like a king, if he wants to practice mock fighting, some very exalted fighter, wrestler will be engaged. Similarly... That is also service. Because Krsna wants to fight, therefore some of His devotees come down to become His enemy. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. This Hiranyakasipu and Hiranyaksa.

Do you think they are ordinary living entity? . . . Nrsimhadeva, God Himself has come to kill him. Do you think they're ordinary? No, they're not ordinary. They're devotees. But Krsna wanted to fight. In the Vaikuntha world there is no possibility of fighting because everywhere there, everyone there is engaged in Krsna's service. With whom He'll fight? Therefore He sends some devotee in the garb of enemy and Krsna comes here to fight with Him. (730421SB.LA)

In Vaikuntha-jagat there is no violence. But Visnu is taking the symbol of violence. Otherwise what is the meaning of this disc and club? So when He wants to be violent, He comes here as Nrsiµha-murti. (laughter) And He sends some of His devotees to play violence. That is Hiranyakasipu. Because there the devotees are so much in accord with Krsna and Visnu that there is no question of disagreement. But violence is when this disagreement, atheist. Therefore sometimes a devotee is deputed in this world to play as atheist, and Krsna comes to kill him. (690411rc.ny)

Additionally, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in his discussion of anartha-nivrtti in the Madhurya Kadambini, cites the following as examples of devotees who have attained the state of prema:

With the attainment of the Lord's association, the eradication of anarthas is absolute, with no possibility of their appearance. Thus if one thinks that the following random episodes show anartha arising even after attaining the lotus feet of the Lord, one chould throw out that thought from his mind by his intelligence. In the case of Citraketu, who had already attained the lotus feet of the Lord, his accidental maha-aparadha to Siva was apparent, not real, for there was no ill effect from his mistake. Both as an associate of the Lord and assuming the form of the demon Vrtrasura, his wealth of prema was still evident. The apparent offense of Jaya and Vijaya was caused by their personal desire stimulated by prema. The two desired in this way, "O Prabhu! O Lord of Lords! O Narayana! You're eager to enjoy the pleasure of fighting, but outside of ourselves, everyone else is too weak to oppose you. Though we're strong, we're not inimical to You. Somehow or other, make us inimical to You, and relish the happiness of fighting. We can't bear to see any lack whatever in Your perfection. Diminishing Your affection for Your devotees, please fulfill the prayer of Your faithful servants."

Here, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura makes no distinction between those who have obtained the Lord and those who are already residents of Vaikuntha. He states only that there is no chance of anarthas arising for one who is situated at the Lord's lotus feet, independent of whether or not one has "attained" this position or is situated in this position, as Jaya and Vijaya. Bhaktivinode Thakura, in a commentary on Bhag. 6.11.24, cites the prayers recited by Vrtrasura as demonstrating the mood of bhava-bhakti.

This quote from Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura agrees with that of Srila Prabhupada above, "The question is that, why the living entity falls down? It is not falls down. Just like Jaya-Vijaya came just to satisfy his master. His master desired fighting, so some of His servant went to the material world and became great enemy." (720405SB.MEL) And when the Lord's pastime is finished they return to their position in the spiritual world.

The GBC Position book deals only with the quotes supporting falldown and is therefore incomplete. What should actually be our understanding? These lilas are there to caution us, that even if one thinks that they are a liberated soul, they must be careful to follow the process of Krsna consciousness strictly. These eternal associates of the Lord have come to fulfill the Lord's desire for particular lilas and show us these pastimes. Sometimes an acarya may point to these lilas to caution a neophyte that you can also fall down. In section eight below, Preaching and Siddhanta, we discuss this in greater detail.

7-Imperfection in Vaikuntha is Mayavada

It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency. "Whereas the material energy is conducted by the external potency, maya, the spiritual world is conducted by the internal potency, Radharani." (Elevation to KC, Ch. 5) And the residents thereof are firmly situated under the protection of that internal potency-antatanga-sakti-vilasanugrhita. (Bhagavat-sandarbha 78) This is also stated in Bhagavad-gita 9.13, daivim prakrtim asritah, that great souls are under the protection of the Lord's divine potency. Sri Jiva shows in Bhagavat-sandarbha 75-78 that the Lord's associates are within His own svarupa. They are all suddha-sattva in nature-tripadvibhuter lokastu asankhyah parikirttitah suddha-sattva-maya sarve brahmananda-sukhahvayah. Thus, to argue that His eternal associates fall implies that the Lord Himself can fall down. Srila Prabhupada states, "It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy." (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.)

This is the conception of the impersonalists who think that a portion of the Lord's svarupa sakti, the Lord's most powerful sakti, can be covered by maya. Srila Sanatana Goswami states in Brhad-bhag. 2.4.183, saktya sampaditam yat tu sthiram satyam ca drsyate, that all the manifestations of the internal potency are stable and real-once one attains bhakti, it becomes part of the devotees essential nature and cannot be destroyed or reduced.

The suddha-sattva spiritual body of the eternally liberated devotee, which is composed of pure spiritual energy, must transform and become covered by matter in the form of a new subtle and gross body, if a nitya-parsada is to fall to the material world. This is again the philosophy of Mayavada. The following quote supports this:

When one goes to a transcendental planet, it is necessary to change both the finer and gross bodies, for one has to reach the spiritual sky completely in a spiritual form. (Cc. Adi-lila 5.22, purp.)

Jiva Gosvami in Krsna-sandarbha, texts 117-152, explains the eternal nature of the Lord's associates. Here the glories of the Lord's internal potency and it's infallible nature are revealed in detail. In view of these conclusive statements of Jiva Goswami it is clear that to even imply that the maya-sakti could have any influence whatsoever on a resident of Vaikuntha is tantamount to saying that the internal potency is fallible. This is the philosophy of the Mayavadis, that maya can cover brahman. Actually, it is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya.

Sri Jiva states further,

The Yadavas and Vrajavasis are His eternal associates. (Krsna-sandarbha, text 153)

And in his commentary on Bhag. 3.7.37 Sri Jiva writes,

By this verse only, the eternality of the Lord's associates is conveyed.

Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura:

This verse aims at explaining that the associates of the Lord, devotion to the Lord, and the planet of the Lord are all eternal. (Commentary on Bhag. 3.7.37)

Avidya, which is anadi, is situated on the backside of the Lord and has the nature of ignorance. She covers the knowledge of the jivas who are situated on the backside of the Lord and are non-devotees. Their non-devotion is anadi. There is no real reason or purpose for their knowledge being covered. (Bhag. 3.7.10 commentary)

It is stated in Bhag. 2.5.13 that maya never appears in front of the Lord, therefore it is apparent that those who are situated on the front side of the Lord, the pure devotees, are never effected by maya.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura:

In Cit-jagat there is no ignorance whatsoever of free souls whereas in Mayik Jagat, mayik impressions of fallen fettered souls are always obscured with intervening materials. (Sri Caitanya's Teachings-Part II, Chapter One, p. 390-1)

Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

The Brahma-samhita describes this supreme abode as ananda-cinmaya-rasa, a place where everything is full of spiritual bliss . . . nothing there is material . . . the manifestation there is totally of the spiritual energy. (Bg. 8.22, purp.)

Are we to suggest that the Lord's internal potency is fallible and imperfect? Many references attest to the invincibility of the Lord's internal potency-that the superior energy of the Lord (svarupa-sakti) can be overwhelmed by the inferior energy of the Lord (maya-sakti) is not supported anywhere by sastra or by any acaryas. Yet even disregarding the direct statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10, that maya cannot enter the spiritual world, this theory that all jivas in the material world come by falldown from the spiritual world requires that the eternal associates of Krsna be influenced by maya in order for them to become illusioned. For "the living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.)

Those who adhere to the philosophy of Sankaracarya state that all the creations are maya and are therefore false, so when we allow an imperfection to enter into our description of the spiritual world, we are wide open for the impersonalists to simply state, that yes, you admit imperfection in your spiritual world; it is just like the material world, all false. Certainly it is considered an imperfection of the spiritual world that one firmly situated under the personal protection of the divine internal potency of the Lord and ecstatically engaged in the Lord's loving transcendental service can fall from that.

8-Preaching and Siddhanta

There is ample precedence for preaching something other than siddhanta given by our acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. Many examples of this are cited below. Indeed, regarding the origin of the jiva, many devotees of twenty and thirty years standing cannot properly understand this subject, which goes to show the intelligence of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada.

Irrefutable proof of a preaching strategy

In addition to the many examples below we would like to point out a very significant proof that Srila Prabhupada was preaching something other than siddhanta when he sometimes said that we did fall from the spiritual world. The question at hand in this presentation is whether or not a living entity already in the spiritual world (originating there) may fall down. It is well known that there exists numerous irrefutable sastric references that once a conditioned jiva becomes qualified by purifying himself and subsequently enters the spiritual world they do not fall back down into the material world. For example Bg. 15.6 states, yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama--"Once going there one never returns." We have however found numerous statements of Srila Prabhupada (many of which are even printed in the OOPs book) directly contradicting such clear sastric statements. How are we to reconcile these contradictions? If we rule out a preaching strategy we are admitting that Srila Prabhupada is making statements against sastra, implying he either doesn't know sastra or is introducing a new siddhanta. Both of these choices are very dangerous for a disciple to assume. The statements are:

Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there's no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and ... the two gatekeepers, they returned?

Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is.

Paramahamsa: If we want.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice," "Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." (Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)

Devotee: If we came from there, how did we fall if we were already there?

Prabhupada: ...because we are in the material world, it is to be understood that we have fallen down...we are in the material condition of life. Just go on treating it, and as soon as you are cured, be careful not to fall down again. But there is chance of falling down, again becoming diseased. Not that because you once become cured, there is no chance of becoming diseased again. There is chance. Therefore we shall be very much careful. (Bg. lecture, Los Angeles, December 19, 1968)

Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. (70-02-27)

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No. There is possibility, but he does not come. (Cc. lecture, San Francisco, Feb. 18, 1967)

Acyutananda: But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns.

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. (Conversation, Mayapur, Feb. 19, 1976)

Devotee: If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? ...

Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. (Lecture, Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

A nice example of Srila Prabhupada's preaching strategy was shown in Durban in 1975:

Prabhupada: (chants mangalacarana prayers) Ladies and Gentlemen, I thank you very much for your kindly participating in this great movement. This movement is not started by me. This was started long, long years ago by Krsna Himself. Firstly, He spoke this philosophy of Bhagavad-gita to the sun-god . . . We have come from the spiritual world in this material world. We have forgotten our father. So we have to revive this relationship with our father, or God, or Krsna. That is the main business of human life . . . We have come from God; we again go back to God if we simply understand Krsna, or God. This is the whole instruction of the Bhagavad-gita. (City Hall Lecture: 751007LE.DUR)

Srila Vyasadeva also did this himself:

The whole idea is to draw the attention of the mass of people to krsna-katha through their strong affininty for hearing mundane topics. (Bhag. 3.5.12, text)

Childish foolish people are attached to materialistic, fruitive activities. Therefore the Vedic injunctions indirectly lead one to the path of ultimate liberation by first prescribing fruitive religious activities, just as a father promises his child candy so that the child will take the medicine. (Bhag. 11.3.44, text)

In other words, the revealed truth may be hidden within the mundane concessions of ordinary religion to help the ignorant class of men--paroksavada vedo 'yam.

Lord Siva was ordered directly by Lord Krsna to preach imaginary philosophy as Sankaracarya and make people averse to the Lord. (Padma Purana, UK 17.107, text)

Sripada Sankaracarya has given his interpretation and imaginary meaning. It does not actually appeal to the mind of any sane man. He has done this to convince the atheists and bring them under his control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, text)

Srila Prabhupada also states:

Lord Buddha, an incarnation of Lord Krsna . . . preached in a duplicitous way, saying that there is no God. Nonetheless, he himself was an incarnation of God. (Bhag. 5.15.1, purp.)

In a 1971 conversation with Revatinandana, Srila Prabhupada said,

These questions are not to be discussed in public. They require a much higher understanding. For the public it should be, 'This is matter, this is spirit.' That's all.

This is an example of a preaching technique by Srila Prabhupada. A well known example of preaching something other than siddhanta is that of Jiva Goswami's advocation of svakiya-rasa over parakiya-rasafor the spiritual benefit of his disciples, while simultaneously always following Rupa Goswami internally. Srila Prabhupada writes,

He could understand that sahajiyas would otherwise exploit the parakiya-rasa, as they are actually doing at the present. [Cc. Adi-lila 10.85, purport]

Srila Jiva Goswami wrote his commentaries so as to pacify his contemporaries and also present the siddhanta indirectly. In the Locana Rocini Tika on Ujjvala Nilamani 1.18, he writes:

Some things I have written here by my own will, and some due to the will of others. The part which is coherent is by my will, and the rest is due to others.

Further examples are Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Krsna Samhita and the Bhagavata wherein he states that the lilas of Lord Krsna are not to be taken literally and further that the descriptions of the planetary systems in the fifth canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam are allegorical. How are we to view these statements? Certainly, as stated by Sadaputa Dasa, he has a particular preaching purpose in mind.

Sadaputa Dasa:

After drinking in from their British teachers the ideas of William Jones and other Western orientalists, these young people were not at all inclined to give credence to old myths. How then could the teachings of Krsna on love of God be presented? Bhaktivinode Thakura judiciously chose to give a partial picture of the truth that would introduce important spiritual ideas without invoking rejection due to deep-seated prejudices . . . He chose to sidestep these mythological aspects of the Bhagavata in an effort to reach an audience of intellectuals whose mundane education ruled out such myths as absurd fantasy. Indeed he went even further. In 1880 he published a treatise entitles Sri Krsna Saµhita in which he elaborately explained the philosophy of Krsna consciousness. In this book he also put forth a reconstruction of Indian history similar to the one introduced by Sir William Jones to brind Hindu chronology into line with the Mosaic timetable of the Bible. This involved converting demigods and Manus into human kings and reducing their total span of history to a few thousand earthly years. (Rational Mythology by Sadaputa Dasa, Back to Godhead Magazine, Jan/Feb '94)

In order to sidestep the strong prejudices of readers trained by the British in Western thinking, Bhaktivinoda Thakura is presenting the Bhagavatam as allegorical, but we would suggest that this is not his final conclusion. (Vedic Cosmography and Astronomy)

Srila Prabhupada has also stated:

Krsna's service is so sublime that even if we cheat, you are not culprit. But because we have to deal with the worldly man, we have to go according to their rules and regulations on cheating. Otherwise, a devotee of Krsna, he never cheats. He never cheats. Whatever he does . . . Just like a mother says to his child, "My dear child, if you take this medicine, I will give you this lugloo." The child is diseased. He will not be able to digest lugloo, but the mother sometimes cheats him. And when he takes the medicine the lugloo is not delivered. Similarly, sometimes we have to say so many things very pleasing to him, but our business is that let him take this medicine. That is tactics. But that is not cheating. If the mother helps the child in drinking medicine and then afterwards she does not supply the lugloo, that is not cheating. Some way or other... That is the instruction of Rupa Gosvami, yena tena prakarena manah krsne nivesayet: "Somehow or other, let everyone be Krsna conscious." There is no question of vidhi-nisedha. Sarve vidhi-nisedha syur etayor eva kinkarah. The other rules and regulation will act as servant, but the main business is to bring one to Krsna consciousness. That is the main business. We are not meant for cheating anyone. We have no business. But to lead one to Krsna consciousness we may say something sometimes. So that is not cheating. (SP Room Conv. Atlanta, March 2, 1975)

Pusta Krsna: Sometimes it may be required to interest someone in a book, that they may find out their interest. Just like people are interested in philanthropic activity.

Prabhupada: Just like our . . . What is his name?

Hari-sauri: Tripurari? (laughter)

Prabhupada: Some lady inquired, "Is there any instruction about the power shortage?" "Oh, yes." (laughs) So she purchased, and the next day she said, "There is nothing about power." So suppose Tripurari has sold one book. The lady inquired, "Is there any basic instruction about power shortage?" And he said, "Yes." So you think it is wrong. That is your version . . . Another example is that Yudhisthira Maharaja. He was asked by Krsna that "You speak lie to Dronacarya that 'Your son is dead.' " Yudhisthira Maharaja refused. For this he had to see hell. He was more moralist than Krsna. For this moral activity he had to visit hell.

This philosophy cannot be understood by neophyte devotees. Our purpose is why we are pushing so much this sales of books. Because our missionary activities will be very widely known. That we want. Somehow or other let him purchase a book. That is our mission. There is no question of transgressing moral principles . . . We want that book selling must be increased as much as possible. This we want. The same thing. Let the child take medicine. Never mind the father is speaking lies . . . Because as soon as he takes the medicine he'll be benefited. End justifies the means. End is that everyone should have a Krsna literature. Doesn't matter what is the means. Because he has taken one Krsna literature, that justifies everything. This is the principle. (760505rc.hon)

Here again, preaching doesn't always mean directly presenting the siddhanta. Additionally, Jiva Goswami states in his Tattva-sandarbha that he cites only those portions of the revered Sridhara Swami's commentary that follow the natural spirit of the Bhagavatam and its Vaisnava conclusions. This is because Sridhara Swami interspersed his Bhagavatam commentaries with monistic advaitin interpretations-not as conclusions, but as a tactic to attract the followers of Sankara from their dry cakes of impersonal philosophy to the Bhagavatam's nectarean descriptions of krsna-lila. Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu Himself greatly appreciated Sridhara Swami's Bhagavatam commentaries and became very much disturbed when Vallabacarya did not show proper respect to Sridhara Swami. Interestingly enough, we also find that Bhaktivinoda Thakura could not tolerate Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's respectful mention of Madhusudhan Saraswati, a Mayavadi couched in Vaisnavism.

Srila Prabhupada writes,

These are the secrets of the acaryas. Sometimes they conceal the real purpose of the Vedas, and explain the Vedas in a different way. Sometimes they enunciate a different theory just to bring the atheists under their control. (Cc. Madhya-lila 25.42, purp.)

When we are preaching to neophytes, non-devotees and the likes we should tailor our preaching such that we most easily capture their faith, as Srila Prabhupada did--yena tena prakarena. However, when elucidating the finer points of siddhanta to mature devotees or in discussions with scholars, who may be well acquainted with sastric conclusions, we must preach the siddhanta. The mature sincere devotees will settle for nothing less and the scholars will simply think we are foolish and don't understand our own philosophy.

To preach to the neophytes that we fell from the spiritual world makes it simple to explain everything nicely. It is easy for a preacher to state that we were with Krsna, become envious and must go back to Krsna. To try and explain to the predominately mayavada tinged populace (including ourselves also) that we came from the brahman but should go back to Krsna is much more difficult. It is also conveniently easy to blame the Lord for our suffering when we don't understand clearly why we are here. So with this preaching fall-strategy we have no such loose ends. And the explanation that Srila Prabhupada was preaching something other than siddhanta when he sometimes said that we fell from Krsna lila, preserves Prabhupada's agreement with the conclusions of all previous and present acaryas.

We have presented several statements of Bhaktivinode Thakura above stating explicitly the origin of the nitya-baddha and the nitya-mukta entities of the different spiritual regions. This explanation leaves little room for interpretation. Unfortunately the authors of Our Original Position have chosen to try and interpret many direct statements of our acaryas that one never falls. They try to manufacture evidence from marginal references which don't state at all what has been inferred by the authors. We may also point out that although the authors have carefully dissected many portions of the Leaves presentation they have also ignored some of the most important and irrefutable evidence. In their book they analyze word meanings and screw out from sections of the Jaiva Dharma of Bhaktivinode Thakura entirely different meanings than that published in English by the Gaudiya Matha and in the Leaves book. Although the authors of the GBC Position book, have in some instances, pointed out defects in logic or word usage in the Leaves book they have not shown that all living entities within the material world have fallen from the Lord's lila, nor have they accounted for the many well documented strong statements (purports and sastric texts) contradicting their proposals. Thus their presentation is very incomplete and insubstantial by scholarly standards. An acceptable presentation must undergo sastra sangati--proper reconciliation of apparent contradictions.

If the siddhanta is No Fall, as we have presented strong evidence in favor of herein, then the only contradiction is that Srila Prabhupada sometimes preached that we fell from the spiritual world. This (no-fall) siddhanta is that it is hard for neophytes to understand the actual philosophy--even many devotees of twenty and thirty years standing do not understand it--and it is more difficult to preach. If we assume that we were all originally with Krsna and due to envy and illusion fell from the spiritual world to a life of repeated birth and death, every last one of us, billions and trillions of living entities, then there are many philosophical contradictions which cannot be explained. In this case scenario there is no reason for Srila Prabhupada to state strongly so many times that we don't fall from the spiritual world, for there is no preaching strategy here (or are we now going to admit a preaching strategy?). Also, many of the statements supporting "no-fall" are direct sastric texts, not purports. The OOPs Position book does not explain these many contradictions, of sastra and commentaries of so many acaryas.

9-Forgetfulness of Krsna

A favorite verse cited as evidence of falldown is Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.37:

"When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called maya."

No acaryas have explained this verse as indicative of falldown from Vaikuntha, indeed this verse states that this condition of turning away from the Lord is brought about by maya, which is not present in Vaikuntha (Bhag 2.9.10). Proponents of the "Fall Theory" like to equate statements such as "forgetting Krsna" as synonomous with the assumption that we were with Krsna in the spiritual world and forgot Him. Srila Prabhupada however dispelled this misunderstanding in a Letter to Jagadisa Maharaja in 1970:

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature?

"Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs."

The understanding that is presented here very clearly by Srila Prabhupada is much different than that interpreted by some-that we were all originally with the Lord in His lila in the spiritual world. In the Cc. purport of the famous Bhag verse (Cc. Madhya-lila 20.117) Srila Prabhupada explains the text of this verse, translated as "Forgetting Krsna" as meaning "When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna," and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura in his Vivrti commentary of Bhagavatam 2.9.35, states that forgetfulness is indirect--the jiva is in a forgetful state, vyatireka buddhite krsna-vismarana ghate. That is, because the jiva is not engaged in the service of the Lord he is said to be in a forgetful state.

10-Gaudiya acaryas support the no-fall siddhanta

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different than that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our dear godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta. And we have living examples of godbrothers fixed in strong philosophical understanding in Sripad B. G. Narasingha Maharaja and Sripad B. V. Tripurari Maharaja. Here we do not see one iota of doubt as to the siddhanta.

Because Srila Prabhupada did make statements in support of both sides of this issue, it is very confusing to many of his disciples. A preaching strategy does however eliminate all contradictions and is not at all out of line with Srila Prabhupada's mood. Many examples of a preaching strategy by Srila Prabhupada can be found, as shown in section eight above. Many verses in this presentation were collected by disciples of Gour Govinda Maharaja in their concern to set matters straight.

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami Maharaja, seniormost Gaudiya Vaishnava on the planet, both by age and spiritual assets, has provided detailed and substantial explanations of the no-fall siddhanta.

We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exalted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Pramoda Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabha Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Sri Caitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, as well as disciples of Bhakti Prajñana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different than that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja.

Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja, did not hesitate to state: "No." [The residents of the spiritual world do not fall down.] "It is very clearly written that the source of the jivas is the tatastha-sakti."

Srila Prabhupada writes similarly,

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literatures, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord, and thus they are always the energy of the Lord and are not the energetic. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) [see also section four]

Visvambhara Goswami, the late and highly respected Radha-ramana goswami, [Vrndavana, India] stated with much astonishment:

They (Iskcon devotees) think like that? That the Lord's eternal associates fall from the spiritual world? I cannot believe it.

The entire Gaudiya mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura is not in doubt as to the conclusions in this regard, having heard it from their Founder-acarya. Nor are the many many scholars in doubt, who have stated that certain devotees do not even know their own siddhanta. We think that this should be taken as an indication that perhaps the forcibly legislated conclusions of these few devotees may be wrong.

We also present herein the statements of prominent acaryas and other authorities from sampradayas outside of our own Gaudiya sampradaya, who all clearly and emphatically state that the jivas of this material world have never been in the spiritual world—have not fallen from lila with the Lord:

Sri Pejwara Swami of Pejwara Mutt, Udupi (Renowned acarya of Madhva sampradaya):

The siddhanta is clear. How can there be any misunderstanding; to think that the Lord's associates have fallen?

Laksmi Tathachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Karnartaka, (respected member of Ramanuja sampradaya)

It is not possible that those associating with Lord Visnu in Vaikuntha could ever fall down.

More statements are forthcoming. We invite our readers to submit substantiatable statements of prominent spiritual authorities. Use the contact us submission form. Devotees are quick to point out the necessity of trnad api sunicena to others, but sometimes hesitate to admit their own frailities or mistakes. We humbly suggest that a mistake has been made in regards to understanding the actual Gaudiya siddhanta and we are deeply disturbed that it has made some of our senior godbrothers look very foolish in the eyes of so many sincere Vaisnavas and scholars. Let us not forget that even Krsna does not understand Himself fully. (SP Room Conv. London: Aug. 17, 1971)

11-Conclusion: Bewilderment due to Vaisnava aparadha

Whenever Srila Prabhupada made statements indicating that we fell from the spiritual world, he did not quote sastra nor make subsidiary statements to back himself up (as he usually did otherwise). However, when stating the qualities of Vaikuntha and it's residents he often quoted sastra and gave numerous examples. For the "Fall Theory" to be correct one must speculate to great lengths, relativize and make so many assumptions and interpretations, entangling oneself in many contradictions, as we have pointed out in this presentation. Those who propound this theory are reduced to minimizing and juggling the very statements of sastra and our acaryas. They propose this even though their cited examples of falldown (Tulasi-devi, Jaya-Vijaya, Citraketu, Kala-Krsnadasa, Gopakumar, Vidarbhi etc) have been systematically debunked one after another.

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon as presented herein and which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to [the] Vaisnavas. . . A sastric reference to the anartha called tattva-vibrahma is given by Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Bhajana-rahasya, wherein it is stated that one remains in illusion about different tattva's, such as jiva-tattva, guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, and rasa-tattva. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Madhurya Kadambini quotes a verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu regarding the offenses which lead to a material conception of spiritual topics.

Some devotees in their fervor to prove that all jivas in the material world were originally in nitya-lila with our Lord have resorted to the same techniques used by the impersonalists, namely word jugglery and misinterpretation of sastric truths. This is the effect of one's offenses, that one developes the same qualities which they criticize of another.

Prominent Vaisnavas do not believe that we fell from the spiritual world and we have given many quotes above which show that our parampara acaryas also state this. They all unanimously fully recognize that the proper siddhanta is that no one ever falls from the spiritual world. This makes this "Fall-down" theory unique in it's disagreement with sastra and the Gaudiya acaryas. This unfortunately, also reflects upon the Founder-Acarya Srila Prabhupada, making it appear as if he did not understand the siddhanta. There are many non-definitive statements which can be interpreted either way according to ones manipulations, all of which add to the confusion. So we have tried to present only those statements herein which are clear and cannot so easily be misconstrued.

The works of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and Bhaktivinode Thakura as originally published in English by the Gaudiya Matha, excerpts presented herein, clearly support the no-fall position. Many key passages have been re-translated and interpreted in the OOPs Position book in an attempt to show the opposite.

Question: What happened to Subala?

Answer: I don't know, he was here yesterday.

Yet, this is what the OOPs Position book is presenting as the siddhanta, that all living entities originated in the spiritual world amongst the eternal nitya-parsadas of the Lord, became envious and fell to repeated birth and death and nonsense activities. Examples are cited of the cursing and consequent fall of Tulasi-devi and Sudama.

If this is to be the case, that such elevated, confidential and intimate associates of the Lord can fall down due to envy, then what is the purpose or meaning to being there in the first place? Sastric descriptions of the perfect eternal abode of the Lord which is the, "ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity" (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text)" and that it "contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions," (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport), ring hollow in this scenario. The Krsna book of Srila Prabhupada will require an amendment stating that "many of the personalities mentioned in this book may not be there in Goloka Vrndavana any more."

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

If such perfect and pure devotees as Tulasi-devi and Sudama, who are most dear to Lord Krsna and Srimati Radharani, can be cursed to fall from the spiritual world to ordinary birth and death,then any resident can be cursed to fall at any time. This is hardly the perfect abode described repeatedly in sastra. To think like this is to imply that the internal svarupa-sakti energy of the Lord is influenced by maya-sakti, which is impossible.

Academic and Gaudiya scholars, not accepting the present explanation by some leaders and seeing the diversity of opinion amongst the disciples, will unfortunately simply think that Srila Prabhupada did not understand the siddhanta. This is most lamentable. In deference to this diversity of opinion, we close with the following quote from Srimad-Bhagavatam:

evam vadanti rajarsersayah ke ca nanvitahyat sva-vaco virudhyetanunam te na smaranty uta

Such is the account given by some sages, O wise King, but those who speak in this illogical way are contradicting themselves, having forgotten their own previous statements. (Bhag. 10.77.30, text)



"Our Original Position" errata

The following is an informal gathering of objections, faults and other irregularities found by another party in "Our Original Position," the official published position on the "Origin of the Jiva" issue. The anonomous author of these points hoped to incorporate them into a book eliminating further doubt in this matter, but did not do so. We simply offer them as seeds for further thought.

They do not necessarily represent our opinion.

Chapter One

·Read: "The authors insist..." and "And yet,..." It is obvious from these two statements that they are admitting that Shrila Jiva Goswami said these things and their only refutation is, 'but Prabhupada translated it as since time immemorial'... and that is exactly our point. (1) Shrila Jiva Goswami (SJG) did say that the soul is eternally conditioned, and (2) Shrila Prabhupada translates it as 'time immemorial' exactly because the concept of eternal bondage was too difficult for a general audience, who had little or no background in Vedic thought, to understand.

·See pgs 74-75 in "In Vaikuntha" It is explaining four type of entities, not the meaning of four words in general, thus all of the statements of "Our Original Position" (OOP's) authors trying to prove that this is not the way the words are defined are off the mark. Also . . .

*Very important" See pg. 27 of "OOP". Notice in the Sanskrit that almost every time the word 'anadi' is mentioned in reference to the Lord in the Upanishadic quotations, it is coupled with/qualified by 'ananta' or a synonym for ananta (having a beginning but no end"). Therefore, Upanishads themselves are assuming that the words anadi and ananta commonly indicate: (1) having no beginning but an end and (2) having a beginning but no end respectively. Or why else would they put both of them together when talking about the Lord? They want to be sure that there is no mistake that the Lord has no beginning and no end. If both of them were synonyms for nitya (as claimed by the author of OOP) why employ the vain repitition of using both of them? Why should either word at all exist or be used in shastra...it would only be a redundency? Therefore, the Upanishads themselves are giving the answer to this question of definition. Both anadi and ananta come under the meaning of nitya. They are both included in nitya, and thus can sometimes be used in place of nitya (as in the first verse of Brahma Samhita...no one will think that the use of the word anadi there means that Krishna has no beginning but can come to an end. There, it is indicating His eternality). But still, each of these two also holds it's own particular meaning which makes them different from each other, and thus the handling of them in the quotations from Upanishads. This is called naya of referring to the whole by pointing out one of its parts amsha-anshi-nyaya. Just as you point to the water and say, 'This is the ocean,' but actually you are only pointing to a small part of the ocean. So, the part is contained withing the whole, and can be used to refer to the whole, but at the same time, it is not identical with the whole. Anadi is used in the Brahma Samhita verse because there Lord Brahma is juxtaposing anadir (He who has no beginning" with adir (He is the origin of everything). In this way, Lord Brahma stresses the Lord's beginninglessness, and gives contextual strength to the statement that He is the beginning of everything. Likewise, shastras will use ananta when they want to emphasise the Lord's endlessness. When shastra wants to be certain that both aspects of the Lord are clearly understood, they they use both of them together, as in the Upanishadic statements, and when they want to speak of the Lors's infinite nature in general terms, they will use nitya. The should be clearly understood, as it is a soft spot for several of the authors key, long winding, convoluted arguments.

When the author insists that only sat and asat exist, which he contradicts shortly thereafter, it should also be understood that nitya and ananta both cme under sat (having existence with no end", and anitya and anadi both fall under (having existence which comes to an end).

Chapter 2

Part 1: Analysis of Vedanta Sutra 2.1.34-37

Untangling the author's errors in this section and Chapter 3 is a little complex and requires substantial explanation.

First a brief on the structure of Vedanta Sutra:

·It is composed of four books, called Adhyayas. Each of those is broken down into four sections called Padas. Each of those has a variable number of Adhikaranas, or sections. each section contains a variable number of verses.

·Each Adhikarana has to have Sangati, or agreement with the whole Vedanta Sutra (VS), with its Adhyaya, with its Pada and with the Adhikaranas immediately before and after it.

What is under discussion in this section of VS:

· 2.1.34,35 comprise Adhikarana Ten. This section is an answer to an implicit question, following from the previous Adhikarana (Nine), which stated that : The Lord has no fruitive motive in creating the world, but does it only for the sake of lila. The question that this raises is: Is part of the Lord's lila to cause the jivas to suffer? I.e., because lila is only for enjoyment, He must be enjoying their suffering/ Adhikarna Ten answers this by saying in 2.1.34: "No, the Lord dispenses karmic reactions to the iving entities only on the basis of the previous actions, and not whimsically. Thus there is no defect on His part." Then, 1.2.35: "If if is asked, 'but every jiva starts off equally at the time of creation, so what else but the Lord's favor to some and disfavor to others could cause the differences we see?' It is replied that at the beginning of creation, they are continuing where they left off in the previous creation. Because this process is anadi, there was never a time when it can be said that all living entities started from an equal position, yet, all are always receiving nothing but the reaction of their previous karma, and thus there is no defect in the Lord's dealing with them."

2.1.35 is saying that the karma of the living entity is beginningless. Therefore his condidioning is also necessarily beginningless. This is what is explained in "In Vaikuntha..." pages 37,38.

· 2.1.36,37 comprise Adhikarana Eleven. This is an answer to an implicit question from Adhikarana Ten, which says: "But, it is seen that the Lord shows favor to His devotee, so how can you say there is no partiality on His side? The reply is: "We accept that He shows special favor to His devotees. It would be a defect if He did "not" reciprocate with them, because that would go against his generous nature. It can also be said that His reciprocating with them is also equal dealings. But ultimately, it is partiality, because when He reciprocates with His devotees, He gives in greater measure than He receives. But it should also be understood that when He reciprocates with them, He does not do any dis-favor to other living entities in the process. Thus, there is no defect on His part from any angle."

Adhikarana Ten (2.1.34,35) is talking about the relation of Paramatma to the jiva souls in the material world (See OOP pg 14) Adhikarana Eleven (2.1.36,37) is talking about the relationship of Bhagavan to His devotees in the material world (This is clear from the discussion of partiality, which Paramatma does not involve in, and from the use of the word "bhakta-vatsala" in SBV's commentary on 2.1.36, see footnote 15, on OOP pg 16 and pg 257 of "In Vaikuntha..."). In his commentary, the primary OOP author tries to muddle these two different topics together and make them one . . . as follows: His commentary does not have agreement or Sangati with the Adhyaya Pada or the previous and following Adhikaranas:

· In his commentary, the author of OOP tries to say something to this effect:

"In analyzing 2.1.34-37 (both Adhikaranas Ten and Eleven), my intention is to prove that the word 'karma,' as discussed in these verses, refers to the activities of both conditioned and non-conditioned souls, both in the material and spiritual worlds. Not just to the activities of conditioned souls. Thus, the interpretation found in "In Vaikuntha" is wrong. They interpret 2.1.35 to say that because the karma of the living entities is beginningless, his conditioning is also beginningless. I disagree, because according to my analysis, the beginningless activities of the living entities and the Lord's beginningless reciprocation with them is not necessarily restricted to the material world. Therefore, the thing here which is truly beginningless, and which is under discusssion by Vedanta Sutra, is the Lord's reciprocation with ALL living entities according to their actions, and not just the state of the conditioned living entities."

His reasoning is defective for the following reasons:

1- The topic under discussion in both this Adhyaya and Pada is the Lord's relationship to the material creation (See "OOP" pg 10, Sutra 2.1.35), thus Adhikaranas Ten and Eleven discussed here (2.1.34-37) must all have Sangati with that topic. i.e., the context of discussion for all of these verses is the material world.

2- He takes 2.1.34-2.1.37 as though they all four belong to the same Adhikarana, but they do not. 2.1.34, 35 form Adhikarana Ten, and 2.1.36,37 form Adhikarana Eleven. Both have different topics.

3. Adhikarana Ten is clearly talking about the conditioned living entities. (See OOP's own translation of the commentary to 2.1.35, pg 14). The use of the words karma, ksetra-jna (knower of the field of material activities) and Visnu (Whose pastimes are associated with the material world), as well as the whole context these words are found in, are clearly saying that 'karma' here is material activity of the conditioned souls. Indeed, the author of OOP admits it himself on this same page.

4. The author goes on to say that he will prove that the word 'karma' as used in SBV's commentary on pg. 14 also refers to the activities of liberated souls, here and in the spiritual world. The defect in that is that he waits until 2.1.36,37 for that, and that is a separate Adhikarana, where a different topic is under discussion. SBV himself ends the discussion of the material conditioned nature of the living entities in Adhikarana Ten, 2.1.35 commentary with the words "[The accusarion of] inequality, etc., in Brahman is refuted." He then sets up the topic for discussion in Adhikarana Eleven with : "That [inequality] in the form of taking the devotee's side is now [however] accepted..." Thus, the use of the word anadi in 2.1.35 is being restricted by SBV himself to Adhikarana Ten. It is also very significant that nowhere in sutras 2.1.36,37 or in SBV's commentary on them is the word anadi used.

· The gist of all of this is: The author of OOP is trying to say that karma, in 2.1.35, refers to the activities of the liverated souls as well, and the Lord's reciprocation with those activities. Thus, when it is said, "eternal," what is being spoken of is not the karma of the living entities, but the activity (and reciprocation from the Lord) of 'all' devotees when they descend to the material world from the spiritual world. And even in the spiritual world, we cannot deny that the Lord protects His devotees."

Part 2: Analysis of Vedanta Sutra 4.4.1 and 4.4.3

· Basically, the author os OOP is trying to prove in this section that svarupa refers to a spiritual form, rasa, etc, in these sections. This is not correct. What is being referred to is the sat, cit, ananda nature of the jiva only. His svarupa as pure consciousness. This is evident from pg 23.24, beginning: "And so it is logical to say..."

General Defects in Chapters 3 and 4

These chapters are very similar. First we will mention the basic defects in them, then specific ones in each chapter.

The OOP author's main endeavor in these chapters is to discount what he feels is problematic with the treatment of the words: anadi, ananta, nitya and anitya in "In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall." His opinion is that the authors of "In Vaikuntha" have erroneously defined these words, (esp, the word usage of the word anadi in reference to the beginningless conditioning of the jiva soul) and so in these Chapters the authors atttempts to analyze the usage of these words in various shastras (esp. anadi) to prove that their meaning is different than that which he sees presented in "In Vaikuntha."

There are two overwhelming defects in his endeavor:

1) The authors of "In Vaikuntha..." are not trying to provide general definitions for these four words. they are talking about four different types of activities, and these words are often used to describe them in shastra.

2) The author of "OOP" has misconstrued the usage of these words in the passages from shastra that he quotes, and has naturally derived inaccurate definitions from them.

In relation to the first point, we quote from "In Vaikuntha...":

"The conclusion is that there are four types of activities or objects, nitya, anitya, anadi, and ananta. Nitya are those which have no geginning and no end, like Vaikuntha planets or Lord Krsna; anitya are those which have a beginning and end, such as the body, anadi are those which have no beginning but have an end, such as the material conditioning of the jiva; and ananta are those which have a beginning but no end, such as the liberation of a jiva from the material world... All objects, qualities, and activities can be grouped into these four classes and this is how Vedic philosophers have used these words."

The discussion related to these four words occurs in the middle of a chapter where Shrila Jiva Goswami's usage of the term anadi in reference to the eternal conditioning of the living entities is being discussed. Neither Shrila Jiva Goswami, nor the authors of "In Vaikuntha..." are interested in writing a dictionary or giving a general dictionary definition of the word anadi while talking about the conditioned living entities. The authors are showing how Shrila Jiva Goswami clearly says that the conditioning of the living entities has no beginning, but can come to an end by the Lord's mercy. And this state, or type of activity, SJG calls anadi. The author of "OOP" never attempts to address this point in context, and that alone renders all of his discussion in the next several chapters mute.

We do no understand why the author of "OOP" has gone to so much trouble to demonstrate the usage of the word in so many shastras, only to establish his own opinion about it, but never even discusses the context that this word comes up in "In Vaikuntha..." He certainly did not admit the fact that this is Shrila Jiva Goswami's usage of the word anadi, let alone dare to attempt to refute Shrila Jiva Goswami.

Indeed, in Chapter 9 of "OOP" the author purports at the very beginning that he will show the statements of SJG to support the fall-vada position...but where??!! He never even mentions SJG's name in the chapter!

We have noticed this as being a general trend in the author's work. By ignoring the fact that Shrila Jiva Goswami's statements, which he never even addresses, are the reason "In Vaikuntha..." was written. The author of "OOP" writes under the implicit assumption that Shri Satya Narayana dasa and Shri Kundali dasa are inventing these interpretations, or are somehow trying to screw them out of shastric statements, to suit some twisted purpose of their own. He then charges in on his white horse; chastising the demons while simultaneously protecting the conclusions of shastra-tiptoeing right over Shrila Jiva Goswami's head in the process. This methodology is dishonest. If he wants to contest that the jiva souls have never fallen from the spiritual world, and that the usage of the word anadi in various shastric passages and commentaries say this, then he should take it up with the person who made the statement: Shrila Jiva Goswami. But he never one time, in all of his extravagant analysis's in this book, discusses Shrila Jiva Goswami's statements on the subject. Instead, he prefers to quote from here and there in Chapter 6, he even quotes from Goswami Giridhara Lala, a disciple of Vallabha Bhatta, who is an offender at the lotus feet of Shrila Jiva Goswami. The following quotation is from Appendix Two of Tattva Sandarbha, translated by Shri Satya Narayana dasa and Shri Kundali dasa:

"Not only did the author [Giridhari Lal Goswami] launch a systematic attempt to refute Shrila Jiva Goswami, but he depicted him as an acarya-drohi (one who rebels against previous acaryas). Lal further claimed that Shri Jiva Goswami was not even a devotee, what to speak of a recipient of Lord Krsna's mercy. He wrote, "Jiva Goswami is unable to understand the learned opinion of Shri Vallachacarya."

It is odd that the author of "OOP" should quote from such a person, even calling him a Vaishnava. He uses Lal's statements to support his own opinion that in relation to the jiva soul's bondage, the term anadi means cirantanam, or "existing since ancient times," but not beginningless. This is especially true in view of the author of "OOP's" pointing out so heartily Vallabha Bhatta's misinterpretation of Shrimad Bhagavatam in the beginning of his book in the section entitles, "The Aim of this Book."

· A misanalysis of the word anadi in Chapters 3 and 4 by the author is subject to the same defects as in Chapter 1. That is, in the Sanskrit it is almost always quoted with other words indicating middle (madhya) and end (anta or nidhana), thus, its commonly understood meaning of referring to beginninglessness is understood by shastras themselves.

· Therefore, the author's attempt to prove in these chapters that anadi is synonymnous with nitya is defeated.

Specific Problems with Chapter 3

Pg. 27 "The Upanisada and other ..." So? Is this a restriction?

pg. 29 "But unlike the Upanisads, the Mahabharata frequently employs the term anadi to describe entities (usually Krishna) or processes that are eternal..." The situation is that out of 44 occurrences of the word anadi in Mahabharata (quoted by the author of "OOP"), 41 of them are qualified with madhya, ananta, etc as discussed above and in Chapter 1.

Pgs 31-36: Regarding Bhagavad Gita:

· Pg 32: "In verse 13.20..." Since when is the living entity the Lord's internal potency?

· Quote from remarks on Chapter 1: When the author of "OOP" insists that only sat and asat exist, which he himself contradicts shortly thereafter, it should also be understood that nitya and ananta both come under sat (having existence with no end), and anitya and anadi both fall under asat (having existence which comes to an end).

· Pg 34: "In other words, to have no beginning is to be free of the modes of nature..." This is not true. To have no beginning is to not be a product of material nature.

· Pg. 34: "If we understand..." anadi and ananta are not synonyms. See above and comments on Chapter 1. He has misconstrued SJG's usage of the terms anadi and ananta. He is not giving dictionary definitions of them, he is referring to specific types of activities.

· Pg. 36: "And so the form of this..." This is referring to the material world, not the jiva's bondage. The author of "OOP's" translation "It's [the tree's]..." is incorrect. The correct translation of tathasya guna-sanga... is "And this material attachment is the only beginning" This is not perceived, reason being that it does not exist. No beginning is why it is not perceived. This is also corroborated on the very next page, Chapter 4, Pg. 37, "One verse describes the process..."

Specific Problems with Chapter 4

· Pg 38: "The question before us...", but it is there in the Upanisada, etc!

· What is the use of analyzing saasvat and sasvat? The author appears to be writing a dictionary in order to avoid dealing with the direct statements of SJG.

· All of this analysis does not prove that anadi does "not" mean having a beginning but no end.

· He also says at the top of Pg. 39 that he will analyze the use of the word anadi in Shrimad Bhagavatam in this chapter, but he does not. His presentation in Chapter 6 "The word anadi in Srimad Bhagavatam" is also incorrect, as will be demonstrated.

Chapter Five

Part 1: Lord Krishna and Uddhava:

· Pg 53: "...Lord Krishna tells us that this is also the case..." Where?

· In this section, Uddhava is basically asking: "Is the living entity simultaneously nitya-baddha and nitya-mukta by substance or in belief?"

·Substance here refers to the living entity's svarupa. Belief refers to his perception under the modes of nature (see Pg 59. "And so, first of all...")

· Bottom line of this whole section of SB is: His svarupa, or eternal conscious being never factually comes in contact with the material modes, but his eternal bondage is due to the influence of maya, or illusion. Just as a prince kidnapped by thieves at the time of his birth may think of himself as a dacoit throughout his life but he never really is.

· Thus, the terms nitya-baddha and nitya-mukta are products of maya. These terms are given for the conditioned soul's understanding in different contexts. When shastra wants to explain that he is not the body, it says nitya-mukta. When shastra wants to explain the duration of his existence under the influence of avidya, it says nitya baddha. But he understands his svarupa to be sat, cit, ananda, and part of a separate potency of the Lord, he realizes that his existence, his svarupa, has nothing to do with prakriti, and the terms baddha and mukta have no more relevance for him. Example: A person places a $100 bill in his pocket, and then forgets that he placed it there. When he becomes aware of its absence, he becomes distressed, and thinks, "When I find my money, I will feel great relief." But both of these two concepts of distress and relief are concepts in his mind, caused by the maya (or illusion) that he has lost his money. When he finally remembers that it has been in his pocket all along, both the distress and relief from distress become meaningless for him, because the illusion that caused both of them has been removed.

· Regarding Viraraghava and the term anitya (Pg 57) the acarya being talked about is SJG. Where is the discussion of his statements regarding anadi?

· Thus, on Pg 59, the conclusion: "And so, first of all..." In substance, the liiving entity is never conditioned, i.e., he is never a product of the modes of nature. "Rather, a belief, based on bodily designations takes place."

· SJG confirms this on Pgs. 59-60, "Although the living being..." This statement from SJG directly contradicts the "OOP" author's point 4 on pg. 56. By swarupa he is eternally liberated by modes he is eternally conditioned. The conditioning is not in the swarupa, otherwise he will never become liberated-muktir hitva anyatha rupam svarupina syavasthati-Bhag.

Part 2: Madhva's Tika:

·Madhva accepts beginningless ignorance in the first statement, "Beginningless ignorance is blindness." The rest is all discussion about bondage, in this context, bondage meaning being dependent on the Lord? Thus in "OOP" he gives a non-standard interpretation to the word "nitya-baddha" (...in order to establish the Lord's supreme independence and the dependence of all others on Him), he first makes certain to say that there is beginningless ignorance among the conditioned living entity's of the Lord's supremacy. This quote from Madhva is only supporting the no-falldown position.

· Pg. 61: "What is normally called material bondage, Madhva calls 'blindness,' andhatvam. His remarkable conclusion is that only the Lord is nitya-mukta, 'eternally' liberated, since only the Lord is fully independent." Here, the author leaves out two steps in this logic, and in effect changes the statements of Madhva to suit his own ideas. The full line of thought in the passage from Madhva is as follows:

1. Material bondage = blindness, andhatvam

2. This blindness is beginningless.

3. This blindness is ended by "favorable endeavor," i.e. devotional service

4. All jivas are eternally dependent on Vishnu (nitya-baddha), whether theyare blind or liberated.

5. Thus, in this sense, only the Lord is nitya-mukta, or completely independent.

· Madhva, even though he is reinterpreting these terms, is careful to keep the siddhanta clear. If we try to take his statements literally, without understanding the underlying siddhanta, then we will become confused by statements such as "But the nitya-mukta is one alone: Hari, Narayana, the Lord, because of His independence," as the author of "OOP" himself becomes confused in Chapter 8 where great offenses are created against Shrimati Tulasi Devi and Shri Sudama.

Chapter 6

· Pg 66: Top: Choice A is the correct one, and is corroborated by Vishvanatha Chakravarti Thakura's commentary on Bhagavad Gita verse 13.20, in Sarartha-darshini commentary. The author of "OOP" neglects to mention this commentary on this verse. If we are to accept the translation presented in "OOP" , SVCT will be contradicting himself.

· Pg 66-67. "Srila Prabhupada translates..." but why?

· Pg 67. "According to the rules of Sanskrit grammar..." This is not true.

· Pg 67. Vijayadvaya Tirtha *is* saying, "because the jiva's bondage is beginningless, the time when it began is not settled."

· Pg 67: Please see notes regarding Giridhara Lala in previous section entitled, "General Defects in Chapters 3 & 4."

· Pg 67: Anvitartha-prakashika was not written by a Vaishnava. His commentary is tinged with Mayavad.

· Pg 68: Regarding: cirantanam

1. It was explained in, "In Vaikuntha..." that anadi is a difficult concept, so acaryas give meanings like 'time immemorial' so we can understand.

2. Beginningless . . ..

3. "The Sanskrit word ciran-tanam..." What about the dictionary meaning of anadi?

4. "...of long standing, old, ancient." beginningless includes all of these.

5. Cirantanam has literal and figurative meaning.

·Pg. 68: Regarding: Shrimad Bhagavatam 11.11.4: (1) repeated mistranslation of the word bahu-kalika as "lasting." Bahu-kalika means "since a long time." Beginningless is also bahu-kalika.

· Pg 69: "The two commentaries quoted..." GGL is a big critic of SJG and AP was written by a non-Vaishnava.

· Pg 69: "We have not heard..." our own acharyas, such as SJG and SVCT do not accept fall-vad.

· Pg 69: "Moreover, were the term anadi not interpreted in this figurative way..." Here the author of "OOP" is saying anadi means asat. Previously, see pg 34 bottom, the author was saying it was sat??

· Pg. 69: "And so..." The correct translation is" And so its beginning (adih). Simply attachment to the modes. This is not perceived."

· pg 69: "In other words..." Why all of this memory business? He cannot perceive because it does not exist.

· Pg 70: "...others attribute the perception of eternal bondage to pratiti, which in this context means mere faith or belief, as opposed to ontological substance." So, how is it that one does not become liberated after just understanding that one is not really bound? the actual meaning is that bondage is not part of the jiva's svarupa.

Chapter 7

· Pg 71: "At the end of the Puranjana story, Lord Krsna, in the form of a brahmana..." Nowhere in this episode is Lord Krishna mentioned. The brahmana is Supersoul, not Krishna. So, there is no question of any discussion of falling down from Krishna Lila in this story to begin with.

· Pg 76: "...that the brahmana (Supersoul)..." Previously, he said Lord Krishna, but here he is admitting that it is Supersoul. Then, he contradicts himself a few sentences later. "Neither... mention Maha-Vishnu..."

· Pg 76: Regarding the phrase, "mayy eva militva mat-sangena sukham anubhutavan tvam eva militva" the Sanskrit word mayi is in the 7th (Locative) case, which means "in me alone" and not "with me." If the meaning is "with me" the Sanskrit would have been "maya eva" - the 3rd case.

· Pg 83: In the commentary, "kintu anady-avrtasya api sakhyasya svabhavikatvad anaditvam," the phrase anady-avrtasya api sakhyasya means the friendship, which is also covered without beginning. Since the covering of the friendship is beginningless, the forgetfulness is also beginningless. So, the word tad-vismrteh (forgetfullness) does not occur in this sentence, but it has been included here for clarity, since it occurs in the previous sentence. The author of "OOP" accepts the fact that the word anaditvam refers to sakhyasya (genitive case of sakhya), but they miss the point that the word anady-avrtasya (covered without beginning) is in the genitive case also, and it also refers to sakhasya. Thus, the forgetfulness has no beginning. The conclusion given by them, that the friendship with the Lord in beginningless is not what SJG is saying; but he is saying that the covering of the friendship is beginningless.

· Pg 85-98: The whole ensuing discussion is akin to the statements of Ramanujacarya from Chapter 2. The basic thing which is not being understood by the author of "OOP," is that when it says, "recovering his original form, etc." this is talking about his svarupa (self-nature) as a pure conscious entity, separate from the modes of nature.

Chapter 8

This chapter indicates a desperation to defend the theory of the falling of the nitya-parsada's, even at the high cost of committing immeasurable offenses to Shrimati Tulasi Devi and Shri Sudama and twisting the philosophy to fit this end.

Shrila Prabhupada once wrote in a letter (in reply to a letter regarding Tulasi care): "Use your common sense. If you have none, then consult those who do." The activities of Tulasi coming to this world are called lila. Tulasi-devi is an expansion of Shrimati Radharani-so now She is falling down also?

yatha skande:

ya drsta nikhilagha-sangha-samani sprsta vapuh pavani

raganamabhivandita nirasani siktantakatrasini

pratyasatti-vidhayini bhagavatah krsnasya samropita

nyasta laccarane vimukti-phalada tasyai tulasyai namah

(Brs. 203)

Translation by Srila Prabhupada

See, Nectar of Devotion. Part 1, Chapter 11-- Aspects of Transcendental Service

Serving Trees Such as Tulasi

and in the Shri Vrndadevy-astaka (verse 3):

samasta-vaikuntha-shriomanau shri-krsnasya vrndavana-dhanya-dhamni

dattadhikare vrsabhanu-putrya vrnde namas te caranaravindam

"O Vrnda Devi, I offer my respectful obeisance to your lotus feet. Shrimate Radharani, the daughter of King Vrsabhanu, has made you the ruling monarch of Lord Krsna's opulent and auspicious abode of Vrndavana, which is the crest jewel of all the Vaikuntha planets."

We are astonished with the conclusion put forth in this chapter that the transcendental lila of one of the Lord's topmost and dearest eternal associates is given as an example meant to show or verify the assumption that all the billions of living entities who are undergoing repeated hellish conditions and entanglement in this material world have fallen in a similar way. To even think that such personalities as Tulasi devi can fall down is like killing one's own guru.

The author of this presentation refuses to give the "OOP" booklet the dignity of any further refutation. Further points presented in "OOP" are amply covered in the "In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall" book.

I hope this helps

An anonymous author

Deliberations on the Origin of the Soul

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Jaiva Dharma ~ Chapter 15 (Deliberation About the Proof of the Jiva's Spiritual Locus-Standi)

Translated from the original Bengali by leading Bengali devotee scholars; disciples of and under the direction of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. Published by Sri Gaudiya Math Madras.

This day Vrajanatha reached the Srivasangana rather a little early, when the devotees of Sri Godruma called at the Srivasangana just before evening in order to have a darsan of the evening service of aratrika (waving light and frankincense). Sri Premadas Paramahamsa Babaji, Vaishnavadasa, Advaitadasa, etc., took their seats in the arbor before the aratrika. Seeing the effusion of sentiment of these Vaishnavas of Sri Godruma, Vrajanatha thought within himself: "I shall have my object accomplished in association with them." Seeing his amiable face and devotional attitude they all blessed him. Within a short while, when they had left for Sri Godruma towards the south old Raghunatha Babaji Mahasaya noticed that tears were rolling down from Vrajanatha's eyes in an incessant flow. He had cherished a strange degree of affection and he asked him: "O darling, why are you shedding tears?"

Vrajanatha humbly submitted:

"O master, my mind has gone out of order as the result of your instructions and association; everything in our worldly life seems to be pith less and unsubstantial. I have grown impatient to seek protection at the Feet of Sri Gaura. Today a question has arisen in my mind, viz., who am I in reality and why have I come into this world?"

Babaji Mahasaya:

"You have glorified me with this question of yours. When the truly auspicious day arrives for a jiva, it is this question that he puts first of all. There will linger no more doubt in your mind when you will listen to the fifth shloka of the Dasamula and its meaning. Just as sparks come out of a blazing fire, so also from Sri Hari, the chit-Sun, come out the innumerable jivas, atomic chits. Though they are not different from Sri Hari(in respect of their chit constitution), yet the jives are ever separate from Him. The eternal difference between God and the jives is this, that God is the Entity due to Whose special Virtue the maya -potency is His ever-controlled servitor, He being by nature her Lord: whereas he, who is by nature capable of coming under the maya prakriti, even when free, is the jiva."

Vrajanatha:

"The decision is excellent, no doubt. I am desirous of knowing its supporting authority from the Vedas; though the words of the Lord are as good as the Vedas, yet when they are substantiated by extracts from the Upanishads, people will be bound to admit them as conclusive."

Babaji:

"Several Vedic statements corroborate this truth; I am citing only a few of them; just listen. We have in the Brihadaranyaka: Just as small sparks come out from fire, so do all jivas come out of God " and "This entity (jiva) has two places, viz., this (material) region and the other (chit) region; there is a third place border tatastha region forming the juncture of the two; staying at that place of the juncture, he sees both the regions, this one and the other one." Herein has been stated the border characteristic of the jiva-potency. This Br.up says again: "just as a big fish in a river at one time visits its Eastern bank, at another the Western one so also does the jiva move to both the sides, viz., that of dream (nescience) and the other of wakefulness (sentience)."

Vrajanatha:

"What is the meaning of 'tatastha' approved by the Vedanta philosophy?"

Babaji:

"The line between the water of a river and the land on the bank is called the ' tata'. The land is contiguous to the water; where is then the 'tata'? The 'tata' is only like a thread discriminating the land from the water. The 'tata' is a very fine line of distinction which is not discernible with the gross eyes. If the chit world is compared to water and the mayika or material world to land, then the 'tata' is the fine line dividing the one from the other; the place of the jiva-potency is that line of juncture between the two worlds. Just as there are glowing atoms in the sun-rays, so also are the jivas; they may have a vision of the chit world on the one side and on the other this world as built by maya. The chit-potency of God is boundless, so is His maya-potency also enormous; between them are there the innumerable minute jivas. The jivas emanate from the tatastha shakti (border-potency) of Sri Krishna; so is the nature too tatastha (border-potency) of Sri Krishna."

Vrajanatha:

Of what sort is that 'tatastha' nature?"

Babaji:

"In it vision can be had of both the sides from the midway position between the two worlds. The capability of coming under the control of both the potencies (chit and mayika) is the tatastha nature. The 'tata' (line of demarcation) can come into the river being dug out by the force of water; again when the land is hardened, the 'tata' becomes land. If a jiva turns his vision towards Sri Krishna, he becomes confirmed within Krishna-shakti (i.e., chit) but when he turns towards maya and turns away from Krishna (i.e. becomes apathetic towards Him), he falls into maya's snare to be fastened in it. This nature is 'tatastha'.

Vrajanatha:

"Has maya anything to do with the jiva's constitution?"

Babaji:

"No, the jiva is constituted of chit material; being exceedingly atomic he is domitable by maya for want of the chit strength. In his constitution there is no trace of maya."

Vrajanatha:

"I heard from my professor that Chit Brahman being enveloped by maya has become the jiva; just as the unlimited sky becomes Ghakasa i.e., the sky of the pot when covered in it, so also the jiva that is Brahman by nature has become such being covered by maya. What does this mean?"

Babaji:

"This is only mayavada. How can maya touch Brahman? If you say that Brahman has no potency, then how can there be His proximity to maya? When the potency of maya is non-existent? Brahman cannot undergo such a miserable condition under the cover of maya. If you keep the para shakti (essential potency) of Brahman awake, then how can maya, who is an insignificant potency, defeat the chit potency to create jiva out of Brahman? Brahman is infinite: how can He again be partitioned into portions as the great sky into skies in pots? maya's action on Brahman cannot be admitted. Maya has no authority over the creation of jivas; though the jiva is en atom, yet he is superior to maya. "

Vrajanatha:

"Some time before, a professor said that the jiva is the reflection of Brahman. Just as the sun is reflected on water, so is Brahman reflected on maya to become the jiva. What does this too, mean?"

Babaji:

"This, too, is mayavada. Brahman has no limit; an unlimited thing cannot be reflected. The Vedas do not approve of the confinement of Brahman within bounds. The theory of reflection is very abominable."

Vrajanatha:

"On another occasion a world conqueror sannyasi said that the jiva is not a real entity; the conceit as jiva has arisen out of illusion; when illusion goes off, there remains only one undivided Brahman. What does this ,too, mean?"

Babaji:

"This, to, is mayavada and is without foundation. According to the statement in the Sruti 'ekamev advitiyam what more can be had than Brahman? When them is nothing else than Brahman where from does the illusion come? And whose is this illusion? If you say that it of Brahman, then you make Brahman insignificant and keep Him not as Brahman. If a separate existence is admitted of the name of 'illusion', then the truth of 'advaya-jnana' is clashed with."

Vrajanatha:

"A scholarly Brahmana of this Navadvipa established that there is no jiva but only one Brahman who in his dream creates the weal and woe; when his dream is over, he is Brahman. What type of statement is this?"

Babaji:

"This, too is mayavada. Transformation from the state of Brahman to that of jiva and the dream - how can all these be substantiated? Citing examples of the conception of silver in a pearl or that of a rope appearing as a snake the mayavadin cannot maintain advaya-jnana, these webs of tricks have been prepared for enchanting and fascinating the people."

Vrajanatha:

"It must be admitted that in the creation of the jiva soul maya has nothing to do; I do also understand that maya can exercise her power over the jiva." Now my question is whether the chit-potency has framed the jiva with the tatastha (border) natural?"

Babaji:

"No, the chit-potency is Krishna's plenary potency; Whatever she produces is eternally accomplished; the jiva is not so eternally accomplished; when he becomes accomplished by practices (sadhana-siddha), he enjoys bliss like those eternally accomplished entities. The four kinds of confidantes of Sri Radha (to be described hereafter) are eternally accomplished; their bodies are about the same, with slight variations, with that of Sri Radhika who is essentially the chit-shakti. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit. Krishna manifests entities of different types in accordance with the kind of the shakti He applies.

When established in His essential chit-shakti He reveals His essential Nature as Sri Krishna Himself on the one hand and on the other as Sri Narayana, the Lord of Vaikuntha. When he desired to have His adherent attendance ' nitya parshada' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana Vaikuntha, etc. He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds. He reveals the three Forms of Vishnu, viz., Karanodakasayi, Kshirodakasayi and Garbhodakasayi. At Vraja He reveals His own Nature as Krishna with chit in fullness; as Baladeva, He reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service of Himself as Sri Krishna. Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya. Till by dint of God's Grace they get shelter under the hladini (bliss-giving) shakti they are liable to be overcome by maya. Innumerable jivas, overcome fastened by maya, are attached to the three gunas (sattva, rajah, tamah) of maya. As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti."

Vrajanatha:

"I have already heard that the chit-world is eternal and so are also jivas. How are, then, the growth, creation and revelation of eternal things possible? If they are revealed at some time and were unrevealed previously, how, then can their eternity be possible?"

Babaji:

"The time and space as you feel in the material world are different from the time and space of the chit world. The time of the mundane world is divided into three periods, past, present and future; whereas the time in the chit-world is ever present as undivided. All the events relating to chit are conceived of as present. Whatever we describe is under the jurisdiction of material time and space; so while we say - ' the jivas were created', ' the jivas then were fastened by maya', 'the chit-world was revealed', 'there is no function of maya in the constitution of jivas, but that of chit,- then there is the influence of material time over our statement; the sort of description is inevitable in this fastened condition of ours. For this reason, in all our descriptions relating to jivas and chit, we cannot get rid of the influence of the mundane time,- the past, the present and the future come of themselves into them. While having a conception of the inner meaning of such descriptions, the truly discriminating judges conceive of the application of the ever present time.

My darling, you should be very cautious while deliberating over these things and feel the presence of chit, having thrown off the unavoidable detestableness of words. All the Vaishnavas say that the jiva souls have been fastened by maya for the forgetfulness of their own nature, but they all know that though the jivas are eternal entities, they are of two kinds, viz. eternally fastened and eternally free. Such statements are due to the human intelligence being subject to errors and omissions. But a sedate person forms a conception of the transcendental truth by means of chit-samadhi. Our statements are material, whatever we speak about is interspersed with the dirt of words, but you will feel what the truth is. Argumentations have no footing here, for it is vain to apply them to inscrutable truths. I know that you will not be able to realize this truth in a moment. The more you culture about chit affairs the more will be evident the difference of chit from matter. Your body is material, all the functions of the body are material, but in reality, you are not matter, you are atomic chit (sentiment) entity. The more you know about yourself, the more will you feel your essential nature to be superior to the material world. You will not be benefited, if only, I tell you this or you hear it from me. The more you rouse up your chit character by means of the culture of Harinama, the better will you get a conception of the chit world. The speech and the mind, both have their origin relating to matter; they cannot touch the chit affairs by great exertions. The Sruti said: "From whom (Brahman) words recede back with the mind without getting Him." I advise you not to ask the decision about this of any one; feel it within yourself. I only give you the hint."

Vrajanatha: "

If the jiva is the atomic ray of the chit (sentient) sun like the sparks of the blazing fire, what is then the function of the jiva-shakti?'

Babaji:

"Krishna is self-effulgent like the blazing fire or the sun, within the range of the chit-Sun, everything is full chit concern; outside it, the rays radiate far and wide. A pencil is a molecule of the svarupa-shakti, and the rays within it are its atoms; and the jivas are such atoms. The svarupa-shakti displays the region within the orb of the Sun; the function of the region outside the orb is that of the jiva-shakti which is the atomic part of the chit-shakti. So only the jiva-shakti functions concerning the jivas. According to the Sruti, which says His (God's) para ( supreme) shakti is of different sorts, the para-shakti which is the chit-shakti, coming of its own regions as jiva-shakti is ever displaying the eternal jiva like the rays of the Sun in the border region between the chit region and the maya's region."

Vrajanatha:

"The blazing fire is material, the sun too, is material; the sparks, too are material. Why are these material things employed as examples in the case of chit-tattva (truth relating to chit)?"

Babaji:

"I have already told you that whenever we have to speak about chit affairs with words that are material, the dirt of matter must be there; so it is under compulsion that such examples have got to be cited. As there is no other way, we have to explain chit things by using the words ' fire' ' sun ' etc. In reality, Krishna is quite different from and far superior to the sun; the region o' chit is surpassingly superior to the brilliant solar orb; the pencil of the sun and its minute rays are extremely inferior to Krishna's pencil and rays. Even so, those examples are used considering only the points of similarity, the examples show the points only partially and do not apply to all cases. The functions of the sun and the sun-rays are to reveal their own beauty and other things, and only these too indicate the self-revealing character and the character of revealing others with reference to the chit-tattva; but the power of ignition and the materiality of the sun are not applicable as examples to chit affairs. When we say that milk is like water, we mean only the liquidity of milk; otherwise can the milk, which has in it all the characteristics of water, be milk proper? Therefore examples explain only the character of a particular side of things, not that of all the sides."

Vrajanatha:

"How is it possible that the pencil of the chit-sun and the atomic rays there within, though not separate from the sun, are yet ever different?"

Babaji:

"In the material world when one thing comes out of another, it either becomes totally severed from that, or remains adhered to that, as it is the property of matter. When an egg comes out of the mother-bird, it remains separate from her and no more keeps within her. The nails and hair on the body of a man though grown out of it keep together with him till they are clipped off. In chit affairs there is some specialty. In respect of whatever have come out from the chit sun, all are simultaneously both distinct from Him and also non-distinct. Just as the solar pencil and the rays coming out from the sun remain the same, so also the pencil from Krishna, viz., jiva-shakti and the atomic rays viz., the jivas, coming out from Krishna-sun, ever remain non-separate from Him; again even being non-separate, different jivas, getting different particles of independent volition, ever keep separate from Krishna.

Therefore the truth of jivas being both non-distinct and distinct from Krishna is an eternally accomplished fact. This is the special feature of chit affairs. The savants cite only a partial example from matter. It is thus; there is a big lump of gold; a bangle is made of a bit out of it; the bangle is non-distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being gold but it is distinct from the lump of gold, in respect of its being the bangle and not the lump. This example does not apply in all respects; but it functions in a particular way; in respect of being both chit, the chit-sun and the chit jiva are non distinct, but in respect of their being respectively the Plenary chit and the atomic chit, there is distinction between them according to circumstances. The example of ghatakasa (sky scape in the pitcher) and mahakasa (fermamental sky) is quite inapplicable to the chit-tattva.

Vrajanatha:

"If chit (sentiment) object and mundane matter are generically different from each other, then how can either be the proper example of the other?"

Babaji:

"There is no such distinction of classes between chit and jada (mundane) matter, as there are different classes in mundane matter, which the followers of the Nyaya-system of Philosophy call Nitya (permanent). I have already said that it is only chit which is the real thing and jada is its uikara (vitiated state). There are many similarities between a pure thing and its vitiation. The vitiated thing becomes different from the pure thing; yet the similarity lingers in many respects. Ice being a vitiated form of water becomes a different thing from water, but similarity still exists in respect of the properties like coldness, etc. though such similarity does not exist between the cold and the hot water; but they are similar regarding their common property of liquidity. Thus in a vitiated thing there remains some common property or another, of the pure thing. So though the mundane world is the vitiation of the chit world, a chit subject may be deliberated on with the help of an example from a mundane matter, utilizing the similarity of a chit property available in such matter. Again adopting the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star (a small star in the group of the pleiads in the constellation of Taurus, visible with fine discernment by ascertaining its position with the gross material, vision), - the subtle properties of a chit matter are conceived with the deliberation of the crude and perverted matter of the mundane world. Sri Krishna's lila is totally transcendental or supra-mundane; there is no stench of mundane matter in it. The sports of Vraja as described in the Srimad Bhagavatam are all transcendental; and when the affairs described therein are read among a group of men, they produce effect upon them according to their respective competence; the members of the audience, who are entirely attached to mundane matter, hear about the activities of the ordinary dramatic hero and heroine with a relish of rhetorical embellishment of material subjects, those of an intermediate competence adopt the principle of the vision of the Arundhati star to see the sportiveness of sentience in the proximity of material descriptions; whereas those of the superior competence dive in the pure relishable sentiment of the sportiveness of sentience beyond the scope of mundane matter. What other means are there for the proper training of jivas than the application of those principles? How can any nice resort be possible for the fettered jivas, in which the power of speech does not work and the mental power admits defeat? No means is to be found except some examples with good similarities and the principle of visualizing the star Arundhati. In mundane matters only will be noticed either distinction or non-distinction, but that is not the case with the Supreme entity. Inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction must be admitted between Krishna and His jiva-potency.''

Vrajanatha:

"Wherein lies the distinction between Supreme God and jiva souls?"

Babaji:

"At first I shall explain the eternal non-distinction and show the eternal distinction thereafter. God is, in His Nature, Sentience, Enjoyer, Thinker, Self-manifest, Manifestor of others, Soul acting at pleasure. The jiva has got all these characteristics. Being the Possessor of Plenary Potency, God has these properties to the utmost extent; whereas the jiva being the possessor of only atomic potency, these properties are present in him to a minute extent. Though there is a distinction regarding the essential nature and character, regarding the possession of those properties yet there is a want of distinction between God and jiva. Being the possessor of His own potency to the fullest extent, God is the Master of Svarupa shakti (natural potency), jiva-shakti and maya-shakti; potency is His servitor under control, He is the Master of potency, His potency acts at His will - this is the essential Nature of God. Though the jiva has all the properties of God in minute jots, he is subject to maya. The word ' maya's used in the Dasamula (vice its fifth shloka)- in the beginning of this chapter) does not denote only jada (mundane) maya, here it means Svarupa-shakti. From its derivation, viz., by which measurement is made, maya is the name of that shakti which makes Krishna known in the chit world, jiva-world and mundane world, as such, maya here denotes Svarupa-shakti and not jada-shakti. Krishna is the Master of maya, whereas the jiva is under her control.

So the Svetasvara Upanishad has said thus. "From all this diversity (which the Veda describes) the Master of maya creates the universe and the other (viz. jiva) is confined in it by maya. Know maya as His Prakriti (Nature) and the Master of maya is Supreme God. All this universe is pervaded by His shakti ". In this sentence of the Veda, the word. Mayee (Master of maya) denotes Krishna, the Controller of maya, Prakriti means plenary potency. These attributes as adored by all and the Nature are the special properties of God; they are not present in the jiva, even when liberated, he cannot get these attributes. The Brahma-Sutra says: "The free jiva souls are able to perform all things excepting the affairs of the universe,-viz., its creation, sustenance, restraint, etc." In it has been admitted that there is eternal distinction between God and the jiva. This eternal distinction is not imaginary, but eternally true, this distinction will not come to an end in any stage. On this account, just know it to be a fundamental statement that ' the jiva is the eternal servant to Krishna."

Vrajanatha:

"If the eternal bheda (distinction) is the accomplished fact, then how can the abheda (non-distinction) be admitted? Shall we then have to admit that there is a stage called nirvana (annihilation)?"

Babaji:

"No, my darling, that is not the case, in no stage is the jiva non-different from (i.e., identical with) God."

Vrajanatha:

"Then why have you stated the doctrine of achintya-bheda-bheda inscrutable simultaneous distinction and non-distinction?"

Babaji:

"With regard to chit-dharma (sentient character) there is eternal abheda between Krishna and the jiva, but in svarupa (essential nature) there is eternal bheda. In spite of the eternal abheda, the conception of the bheda is eternal. Though the abheda svarupa is an accomplished fact, yet there is not any indication there of relating to any state. Whenever there is an indication according to a particular stage, the manifestation of the eternal bheda is the stronger. For example, if a house is simultaneously said to be ' without Devadatta and with Devadatta,' then the eternal indication of its being with Devadatta, will ever continue, even though according to some consideration it may be without Devadatta'. I shall cite another example from the mundane world,- the sky is a mundane matter, even if there be a receptacle of the sky, too, in spite of that receptacle, as there is the indication of the sky alone, so the indication of the nitya (eternal) bheda that is there in the abheda entity, is the only indication of the thing."

Vrajanatha:

"Then, please, tell me a little more clearly about the eternal nature of the jiva."

Babaji:

"The jiva is anu-chaitanya (atomic sentience), endowed with the attribute of jnana (consciousness), predicable by the term 'aham' (ego), enjoyer, thinker and comprehender. The jiva has his eternal nature; that nature is astral. Just as in the gross body, the hands, legs, eyes, nose, ears etc., being properly arranged, have manifested the crude nature; so the atomic sentient body, perfect in every feature, has manifested the atomic sentient nature; and that is the jiva's eternal nature. When he is fettered by maya, his natural body becomes covered with two phenomenal bodies, the one is called linga-sarira (subtle body), and the other the gross body. The subtle body is a disguise over the body of the atomic sentient nature; that subtle body is unavoidable from the time that the jiva is fettered to the time that he is emancipated. At the time of taking other births only the gross physical bodies undergo changes, but not the subtle body. The subtle body (of a bounder soul) is only one; at the time of changing a gross body, it takes away with it all the desires regarding karma made by it before accepting the subsequent body. The nature of a jiva who has got a new body is formed according to the instinct transmitted from the previous birth grown out of the desires thereof. And he gets his caste according to that nature. Karma or action ensues according to the varnashrama (caste and stage of life), and after death he again gets a similar course. The first cover for the eternal nature is the subtle body ( or mind) and the second cover is the gross (physical body)."

Vrajanatha:

"What is the difference between the nitya sarira (eternal body) and the linga-sarira ( subtle body)?"

Babaji:

"The eternal body is of atomic chit (sentience), blemishless and really predicable by aham (ego). The subtle body is constituted of the three vitiations, viz. manah (mind), buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara ( egotism).

Vrajanatha:

"Are the mind, intellect and egotism of the mundane nature? If they are so termed how can their sentient functions be performed?"

Babaji:

"Just look into the dictum of the Gita. "God with His chit-shakti (sentient potency) has two prakritis (shaktis). viz. para (superior) and apara (inferior); here the para-prakriti has been known as jiva-shakti and the apara-prakriti as jada (mundane material) or maya-shakti. The jiva-shakti is chitkana (atomic sentience) and, for this reason, it is called para or superior. maya shakti is jada and as such it is celled apara. The jiva is different from the inferior potency, which has in it eight coarse things viz., the five maha-bhutas (primary elements) and manah (mind) buddhi (intellect) and ahamkara (egotism). The last three are within jada prakriti and are therefore mundane matters; there is some appearance of jnana (sentience) in them; but it is not chit by nature, but of mundane matter. The mind places the affair of the knowledge of sensual objects on the images that it takes from mundane matter; this affair has its root in mundane matter and not in chit matter. The faculty that discriminates between good and bad relying on that knowledge is known as buddhi (intellect), that, too, has its root in mundane matter. And the egotism, too, arising out of the acceptance of that knowledge has mundane matter at its root and not the chit. These three, combined together, manifest a second nature of the jiva, related to mundane matter. The egotism of the subtle body of that nature of the jiva overcome with mundanity becomes strong enough to cover the egotism of the eternal nature. The egotism in the eternal nature connected with the chit-sun is eternal. In the stage of liberation, that egotism appears again. So long as the eternal body is almost hidden under the subtle body, the conceit of the connection with mundane matter remains strong, and consequently the conceit of connection with chit is almost extinct. The subtle body is too fine and therefore the gross body, covering it, makes it act. When the gross body covers the subtle body, then the egotism of the conceit of color and class of the gross body becomes the prevailing factor. Though the mind, intellect and egotism are of mundane nature, yet they have the conceit of knowledge, being the vitiated nature of the function of atma (soul).

Vrajanatha:

"Now I have understood that the eternal nature of the jiva is atomic chit and that in that nature there is elegance of the limbs made of atomic chit; when it is bound down (by maya), that elegance is covered by the subtle body; and then with the cover of the gross body, the nature of the jiva is subjected to much mundane vitiation. Now I beg to submit my question whether the jiva is entirely free from defects in the liberated state"

Babaji:

"Though the atomic chit is free from defect, it is imperfect, inasmuch as being extremely atomic, it is too weak. Under these circumstances, only this defect is seen in it, that the nature is capable of being almost extinct. The Srimad Bhagavatam has said, "O Lotus-eyed Lord, wisdom of one cannot be free from contamination without unalloyed devotion to Thee. Those treading the path of jnana or following the path of inductive process, devoid of an atom of devotion to They may think themselves liberated; on the contrary failing to adore Thy Lotus Feet, their minds ever remain impure although with great exertion and difficult efforts they might have attained a high stage nay. almost near liberation, but hurled down to the mundane plane because they have neglected to take recourse to Thy Divine Lotus Feet" As such, however ameliorated may a liberated jiva be the imperfection of his constitution will ever accompany him and this is the truth about jivas. It is for this reason that the Veda has said that "God is the Controller of maya, whereas the jiva is subject to the control of maya" being the tatastha shakti."

The Atomic Ray - From Uniform consciousness to Individual Conscious Units

Swami B.G. Narasingha

Question: What is the constitutional position of the jiva ?

Answer: In the Chaitanya-caritamrta we find this statement;

jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa

krsnera tatastha sakti bhedabheda prakasa

"The constitutional position of the jiva is that of an eternal servant of Krishna. The jiva belongs to the marginal potency of Krishna and as such the jiva is considered a manifestation simultaneously one and different from Krishna."

The jiva is called tatastha-sakti or the marginal potency of Godhead. Krishna's potencies are classified into three categories; antaranga-sakti the plane of Divinity, Vaikuntha, tatastha-sakti the marginal entities known as jivas, and bahiranga-sakti the world of Maya, material illusion.

The tatastha-sakti, marginal plane, is located on the line of demarcation between the plane of Maya and Vaikuntha. Marginal means that the jiva has got adaptability to either side — to Maya or to Divinity. Maya is the land of exploitation and Divinity or Vaikuntha is the land of dedication.

The tatastha or marginal plane is the brahman effulgence, the bodily effulgence of Maha Vishnu and it is living and growing. That brahman effulgence is the outer covering of the Vaikuntha planets and it is the source of infinite jivas.

Brahman is the marginal plane of non differentiation. That plane is the unconcentrated principle of sat, cit, ananda, existence, consciousness, and bliss. At this stage we find that the jiva is an atomic ray or particle of non differentiated character. The concentrated form of sat, cit, ananda is Sri Krishna the Entity of Absolute Concentrated Intensity. The living beings, jivas, are His separated parts, vibhinnamsa-jivas. Thus the jivas have inherited a minute proportion of Krishna's qualities; therefore, the jiva is an embodiment of perception, the perceiver, egoism, the enjoyer, the thinker, and the doer. The constitutional distinction between Krishna and the jiva is that Krishna is Almighty while the jiva is atomic.

From that stage, a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units of dedication grow. These units of consciousness, jivas, are endowed with seed adaptability towards both the spiritual and material worlds without ever having had participation or experience of either.

It is not that non differentiation is the origin of differentiation as conceived by the Mayavada philosophers. But because the marginal position is on the verge of the higher eternal potency, swarupa-sakti, differentiation manifests in that plane of uniformity. Swarupa-sakti is a substance of eternal differentiation and variegatedness. Swarupa-sakti means the internal potency and both the tatastha-sakti and the antaranga-sakti belong to the superior internal potency of swarupa-sakti. The bahiranga-sakti belongs to the external potency, maya, which is only a shadow reflection of reality.

Strictly speaking the jiva is marginal and this means that he is in a position to analyze adaptability only. He can go towards the spiritual world and he can come towards the material world. But his ability is minute.

In that state the jiva is left to exercise free will. Because the jiva is a conscious unit he has free will. Without free will it is simply matter. Free will is all important but because the jiva is atomic his free will or discretion to analyze adaptability is defective. He may analyze correctly or not.

In the case of correct analysis of his adaptability the jiva can become a member of the eternal world of service to Godhead, nitya-siddha, eternally perfect. Or in the case of incorrect analysis of his adaptability the jiva falls down to the material world.

The question arises that why didn't Krishna endow the jiva with perfect discretion so he would make the proper analysis of his adaptability? If this were so then certainly all the jivas would at once come to the spiritual world and this would create a compulsion among the jivas. Compulsion means interfering with free will. But free will is guaranteed. Some are coming to this side and some are going to that side.

A jiva who is falling down from the marginal plane does not directly come in contact with matter. The jiva first comes to the stage of cidabhasa. Before pure consciousness can evolve to material consciousness it must pass through a hazy stage of consciousness called cidabhasa. In the stage of cidabhasa the jiva becomes conditioned and is thus able to enter material existence. Cidabhasa means preparation for a life in the land of misconception.

When there is creation again the fallen jiva is impregnated into a material universe by the glance of Maha Vishnu. To analyze the particular details of the history of the jiva is unnecessary. We are concerned only with how the transformation of material consciousness springs from pure consciousness.

The residents of Vaikuntha and Goloka Vrindavana are also seen to come to the material world but that is only in the case of lila, to assist the Lord in His pastimes or to carry out His mission. The Vaikuntha servitors come here and when their work is over they return. Such servants of the Lord, like Jaya and Vijaya and others, even when they come to the material world are never considered fallen souls because they are never forgetful of their actual position. The fallen souls of this world fall down from the marginal position within the brahman effulgence, never from Vaikuntha.

If one wants to argue that the jiva falls down to this material world from eternal lila with Krishna in the spiritual world, then that is tantamount to Mayavada philosophy because that suggests the fallibility of the Vaikuntha plane. The Vaishnava acharyas never admit to even a remote chance of fallibility in Vaikuntha what to speak of Goloka Vrindavana.

The residents of the Vaikuntha planets do not have any awareness of material existence, of the worlds of exploitation, enjoyment and suffering. The material worlds actually have no existence other than being a covered state of pure consciousness of the jiva. The residents of Vaikuntha being always in pure Krishna consciousness do not have any experience of matter.

With regards to understanding spiritual subject matters like the origin of the jiva, the nature of Krishna and the nature of the spiritual world, a jiva in bondage is regrettably very slow in these matters. Understanding spiritual subjects largely depends upon the jiva's adhikari or acquired qualifications. Unfortunately, due to his meager adhikari and limited experience the jiva all to often wants to understand spiritual matters in relation to his mundane material consciousness.

What is brahman, what is Krishna, what is Vaikuntha, what is swarupa-sakti? What are all these things is unknown and unknowable to the conditioned jiva. Even those in the neophyte stage of devotional service, bhakti-yoga, can not have a transcendental understanding of these subjects due to their still being covered by maya's influence. The neophyte is all to often dependent upon crutches like paintings and pictures for his understanding which although giving him some direction nevertheless leave him hanging in the mundane conception.

For example: We have seen the artistic rendition of the birth of Brahma on the stem of the lotus which springs from the navel of Garbhodakshai Vishnu. There the lotus is red or yellow color, large in size, and having a very long stem. Thus the neophyte is left to conceive of that lotus in relation to his experience of a lotus in this world. What is the actual reality of that "lotus" having sprung from the navel of Vishnu and being the birth place of Brahma the artist can not actually inform us. But the conception of the neophyte becomes fixed in the conception that the substance of that lotus is also like the lotus of this world.

In his commentary on Brahma-samhita Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura has described that "golden" lotus as cidabhasa, "the hazy aspect or reflection of Divinity." "That lotus, he says, "is the residence of the aggregate jivas." So what is that lotus? Is it simply a "lotus" or is it something more? We must try to think more deeply into these matters.

The point I am trying to make is that the "lotus", the brahman effulgence, the Vaikuntha planets or any other thing having spiritual existence can not be properly conceived when simply referenced to its mundane counter parts in the material world. Realization is required.

The sastra and the self realized devotees have tried to explain the realized truths about the Absolute Reality from different angles of vision for the purpose of helping the conditioned jiva to awaken his original pure consciousness.. Still some jivas are insistent on dragging their mundane mind and intellect to the attempt at understanding Reality. Thus the conditioned jiva is very slow to catch the real idea given in sastra and by pure devotees.

To enter into proper understanding of the sastra and revealed truths spoken by pure devotees the jiva has to put aside all mundane considerations and experiences. Only by advancement in pure devotional service are the Pure and Unalloyed Truths regarding the Absolute Reality revealed to a jiva. Argument and word jugglery are useless attempts at realizing the truth. On the other hand, to form a single line of thought or a single criterion by which all jivas can understand the truth is also difficult. And it is for this reason that the sastra and the acharyas have expressed many angles of vision to enlighten the jiva, some of which even appear contradictory. However, the more the eyes of the jiva are anointed and adorned with the salve of Love, the more the Absolute Truth, Sri Krishna will reveal Himself.

The constitutional position of the jiva is to serve Krishna. As such a jiva is never satisfied in material existence despite his wandering from the post of Brahma down to that of an insignificant ant. When by the grace of Krishna the wandering jiva meets a bona fide representative of Krishna he can get the seed of eligibility, bhakti-lata-bija, and thus he can attain to the stage of jivan-mukta or that of a liberated soul from material existence.

This is what I have understood regarding the constitutional position of the jiva as I have heard it from the sastra and from the lips of my spiritual masters.

Srila Siddhanta Saraswati on Jiva Tattva

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur from Jaiva Dharma

A Short Presentation on Jiva-tattva

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